The right way to Report Internal Audit Results

Randy

Super Moderator
#11
Management doesn't read the report you produce? What's the point of doing the audit and reporting your findings, then? Sorry if I missed something important here...
You're not missing anything and I'm sure many of us are thinking along the same lines;)
 
Elsmar Forum Sponsor

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#12
Andy - I don't present the audit report to management, instead I bring a summary of the audit results to management review. The report is available online for anyone to review if they wish, but I don't expect anyone (especially management) to review the details.
Management doesn't read the report you produce? What's the point of doing the audit and reporting your findings, then? Sorry if I missed something important here...
You're not missing anything and I'm sure many of us are thinking along the same lines;)
Maybe y'all did miss something. The OP says that he gives management "...a summary of the audit results..." but not the full report. He doesn't say that management doesn't read the summary, or that management isn't aware of the results.
 
#13
True, Jim.

However, when I read this..."....was that my audit report was too complex - for each area audited, I listed on the report all relevant elements and commented on how these were met by the auditee. Of course the more relevant elements to the auditee had much more substance than the 'generic' elements that apply to all areas (ie for Purchasing I had lots more comments on 7.4 than on 4.2.3).
I listed in my report a summary of all the records I reviewed, as well as any concerns and corrective actions identified during the audit
." - I'm a little worried that anyone would get a good grasp, as I pointed out previously. Viewing this from the CB auditor's point of view, I'm wondering what the purpose is - if management only use a summary at Management Review - who's looking at this if it refers to 'elements'? Shouldn't the subject of the internal audit be about process, process performance etc?
 

Sidney Vianna

Post Responsibly
Staff member
Admin
#14
Viewing this from the CB auditor's point of view, I'm wondering what the purpose is -
The original post in this thread makes it clear that the same audit report, which is now being criticized by an external auditor had been praised by other CB auditors.

So, and certainly, the format of the audit report should not be changed nor re-considered because of a specific auditor whim...

Some people do HAVE PRIDE in their work and a thorough, exhaustive audit report is the outcome of such professional pride. Nothing wrong with that.
 
#15
The original post in this thread makes it clear that the same audit report, which is now being criticized by an external auditor had been praised by other CB auditors.

So, and certainly, the format of the audit report should not be changed nor re-considered because of a specific auditor whim...

Some people do HAVE PRIDE in their work and a thorough, exhaustive audit report is the outcome of such professional pride. Nothing wrong with that.
I'm reminded of the story of the Emperor's new clothes...:notme:
 

Big Jim

Super Moderator
#16
Re: The right way to do Internal Audits

I'm going to throw in with the auditor. I think the others have said nothing because you've been doing what they expect. This one may be on to something!

Simply put, telling the rest of management which clause numbers etc are part of the audit findings is not much use, frankly. They have no time for what ISO says! Now, the other CB auditors all live in that world! So, when you speak their language, why would they be concerned? I'm guessing you took an internal or Lead Auditor course and that's what they teach you - but that's not appropriate for internal audits, IMHO. Better to relate it to their process, performance, etc.

I too, like the 'quick and dirty' approach to audits. Notes made on paper, of your own observations, samples etc are far more effective than reams or hours spent in typing copious pages of report. You need to make it painless for yourself, management need the 'elevator pitch' in a report.

Despite what the wrongs and rights of the way the auditor did this, for a minute - ask yourself this: Do management understand what I'm telling them? Really, really?

As Roxane says, he didn't hammer you, it's just that he had a lot of different ideas about what you've been told - and what you've been led to believe by the others' silence - is a good way to audit. Actually, if I were the auditor, I'd probably say something similar!
And on this general thought, was anything the auditor said of value to you even if you don't have in mind to completely revise your internal audit program? If so, look for how you can integrate those better ideas that he was so willing to share that can add value and help you to improve.

That how most of us grow, line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little, there a little. Even if it is just a little, it is still growth.
 
B

Bill Pflanz

#17
I guess every auditor has their own way of doing it and if it works than that is enough. That said, I always did my audit notes and reports like Andy described. I normally get enough notes to identify evidence reviewed and when I found a non-conformance I noted what was wrong and where it was located in case the manager wanted to review the objective evidence themselves. My notes of this information were generally concise. I don't think I every had more than 4 or 5 pages of notes.

Bill Pflanz
 
A

aliasJohnQ

#18
Re: Internal Audits - right way to do them?

Roxane,
I love the way you think!
How do I propose to answer the Internal auditor about suggestions he made on the audit report? Am I suppose to write up a Preventive action report to counter his suggestions?
Thanks for your help!
 

RoxaneB

Super Moderator
Super Moderator
#19
Re: Internal Audits - right way to do them?

aliasJohnQ said:
Roxane,
I love the way you think!
I have friends and colleagues who would see this and question your sanity for thinking that. However, in my very biased opinion, I think you're a genius for saying so. :D

aliasJohnQ said:
How do I propose to answer the Internal auditor about suggestions he made on the audit report? Am I suppose to write up a Preventive action report to counter his suggestions?
Thanks for your help!
I'm presuming that these "suggestions" are not nonconformances, but rather ways to enhance or improve how your organization's systems alredy comply with requirements. This presumption is the foundation for my response, so if I'm presuming incorrectly, please let me know. Granted, it is also acceptable to say those 3 little words every woman loves to hear... You. Are. Right.

Short answer - Your Preventive Action Report may be the tool to use.

Long answer - Keep reading...

These "suggestions" are probably more along the lines of "opportunities for improvement". Using a Preventive Action Report could work and would be nicely aligned with ISO 9001 a version or two ago. With the current version, however, how does your organization capture (and follow-up) with improvement ideas?

I've seen some of the following methods used in lieu of a Preventive Action Report :

  • Opportunity for Improvement form
  • Captured in Management Review minutes and followed up in subsequent meetings
  • A formal Improvement Project / Initiative process

This is what I think of Preventive Action Reports - they're used to take action to avoid a nonconformity or discrepancy. If these suggestions from the external auditor were more along the lines of improving the existing system, I'd probably look for another way to capture the information.

Then again, I don't know what your Preventive Action Report looks like. Maybe there's a check-box on it that says "Improvement Initiative" or "Opportunity for Improvement" or something along those lines.

I hope that helps.
 

RoxaneB

Super Moderator
Super Moderator
#20
Re: Internal Audits - right way to do them?

Roxane,
I love the way you think!
How do I propose to answer the Internal auditor about suggestions he made on the audit report? Am I suppose to write up a Preventive action report to counter his suggestions?
Thanks for your help!
Part II here and separate from using a Preventive Action Report....counter??? I take it you do not agree with the suggestions made?

In my past life, I developed an OFI (Opportunity for Improvement) form which included a section for the benefit analysis. Based on that analysis, the recipient of the OFI was responsible and accountable for either accepting or rejecting the "suggestion".

"Suggestions" from external auditors do not, I believe, require a formal response to the Registrar, however, having an in-house formal process for analyzing and accepting/rejecting them was helpful come next audit when the auditor wished to see what we had done with them.
 
Thread starter Similar threads Forum Replies Date
M Choosing the right Industry Financial Report Manufacturing and Related Processes 1
M Does the Head of the Department being audited have the right to amend audit report? General Auditing Discussions 15
T Quality auditor legal right to see Board meeting minutes ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 12
M Gage R&R and right way to measure Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 16
O Is hiring more difficult right now? Career and Occupation Discussions 14
S California Cleaning Product Right to Know Act - Product Label advice needed Miscellaneous Environmental Standards and EMS Related Discussions 1
M GDPR - Is anonymizing sufficient to address right to erasure? Medical Information Technology, Medical Software and Health Informatics 3
Marc Latest Posts in Right Sidebar on the Forum Listing Home Page Forum News and General Information 6
N Does 13485 auditor have a right to inspect non-CE products? ISO 13485:2016 - Medical Device Quality Management Systems 5
M Reference to IATF 16949 clause 8.4.3 in clause 8.3.4.4, Is it right? IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 1
qualprod ISO 9001:2015 - Right method to address clause 6.1? ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 12
T Tape Measure, the right device for 2 or 3 decimals accuracy on prints General Measurement Device and Calibration Topics 8
K How do you select the right grips for your tensile tests? Imported Legacy Blogs 0
N Explanation - Quality means doing it right when no one is looking ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 5
C Risks involved in requesting Cert to ISO9001:2015 right when released ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 2
S The Right Cleanliness Test Standard for Coolers and Radiators Other ISO and International Standards and European Regulations 3
Wes Bucey Inspection - Done right, it can be a marketing advantage Manufacturing and Related Processes 3
E Looking for an alternative to a decade box that is unavailable everywhere right now. General Measurement Device and Calibration Topics 7
S How to make pack bolts and nuts kits with right amount Preventive Action and Continuous Improvement 3
Marc In flight: See the planes in the sky right now ? Interactive Travel - Hotels, Motels, Planes and Trains 7
L Find the right Test to fail method according to the standards of LV 124 FMEA and Control Plans 1
B Any future for someone working as Lead Quality right these days? ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 6
C FMEA DOGMA about Severity - Am I right or Wrong? FMEA and Control Plans 2
R MCF analysis with Left & Right Censored (Truncated) Data Reliability Analysis - Predictions, Testing and Standards 1
K Is my Internal Audit Plan on the right track? Internal Auditing 0
G The right approach for making the transition from ISO9001 to AS9100 AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 9
N The right method to Measure and Evaluate a Flatness Callout Inspection, Prints (Drawings), Testing, Sampling and Related Topics 1
AnaMariaVR2 5 keys to selecting the right CM (Contract Manufacturer) ISO 13485:2016 - Medical Device Quality Management Systems 1
M 7.6.2 Revisions following Engineering Changes - What is the right meaning? IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 4
L Product Manager vs. Quality Manager: Who is right? Misc. Quality Assurance and Business Systems Related Topics 14
P Source Inspection vs. Right of Access clause in a Purchase Order - Differences AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 16
B Having trouble writing a directive (procedure) that points to the right place ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 15
G What is the right sequence for a Gage R&R study? Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 7
M Tolerance vs. Study Variation - Choosing the right one Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 5
E Internal Audit Difficulties - Am I headed in the right direction? ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 34
M Design and Development: What is the right meaning? IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 6
Howard Atkins Right to Appeal 3rd Party (Registrar aka CB) Findings General Auditing Discussions 23
C Is this Chart right or not? Quality Management System (QMS) Manuals 16
H FAI inspector could be a operator of factory, is it right? AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 15
bobdoering Dr Wheeler weighs in on "Individual Charts Done Right and Wrong" Statistical Analysis Tools, Techniques and SPC 2
Hershal What is up with Saturday night TV right now? Coffee Break and Water Cooler Discussions 16
C OASIS Complaint - The right way to file a complaint against a CRB AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 1
C Customer Right to View Certification Body Audit Reports? General Auditing Discussions 11
J Finland: First Country To Make Broadband Access A Legal Right After Work and Weekend Discussion Topics 24
K Scoring Scale for Internal Audits - Please help finding the right terms Internal Auditing 44
C We shouldn't have windex in manufacturing area - Is the auditor right? AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 38
A How to find the right AS9100 help? AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 7
W Right title for IMS - Integrated Management Systems or System IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 13
E Right Term for this Assembly - Loading Fixture Clip? Design and Development of Products and Processes 4
A SOP's (Standard Operating Procedures) - the "write/right" way ISO 13485:2016 - Medical Device Quality Management Systems 12

Similar threads

Top Bottom