The Value of 9K-2K - Soundbites and Spin

A

Al the Elf

#1
The value of 9K-2K - soundbites

Lucky Al has been asked to pull together some collected learning from the small proportion of the registrations that have actually converted from 1994 to 2000 versions so far. I'm hunting for brief thoughts about the value that people believe (or should that be perceive) they have gained (or not). As an extension I'm also interested in anyone who has decided not to register to the new standard and why.

The group I'm working with has already decided it wants a management system, they just want to try to understand why so few in the world have adopted registration to 9K-2K.

I'm hoping my esteemed colleagues in the Cove can help out...

Cheers, Al.
:)
 
Elsmar Forum Sponsor
#2
We'll go for it...

We'll go for 9k2k... The only reason we are not there yet is that we have been working flat out with our EMS. We're getting close to the certification audit now and next item on the menu is 9k2k...

We intend to merge EMS, QMS and H&S into one system.

/Claes
 
M

M Greenaway

#3
We are also beginning the process. mainly delayed due to having to retain QS9000 certification, and consider TS16949 certification.

I suspect that most are leaving to the last minute, which kinda hints at the perceived value of it.
 

Russ

Quite Involved in Discussions
#4
We have our first surveillance audit next week that starts our transition. Our delay is also the result of having to deal with retaining QS9000, for now. I'll have to post back here about what problems we face in this particular mix of standards.

I wish anyone luck if they have to retain QS and transition to ISO9K2K. It hasn't been fun so far!
 

gpainter

Quite Involved in Discussions
#5
I had put up a post similar to this a while back. I believe Marc was going to respond on his experiences to date of the problems that he has encountered or anyone else for that manner.
 
D

David Mullins

#6
TIME

Al,
I believe the main ingredient is time.
They've given us 3 years to comply, and by golly we'll take the whole three years !

With the '94 version we got one year and everybody jumped.
 

Mike S.

Happy to be Alive
Trusted Information Resource
#7
Al,

Some good thoughts have already been presented. If you read through some of the other recent threads in the Cove I think you'll find several additional reasons that many companies have not moved to 9001-2000. Just a couple of personal thoughts/opinions FWIW:

One of the "new" (improved?) things about 2000 is that it allegedly requires continuous improvement (there's even some debate on that -- see the other recent thread) . However, any company that doesn't try to continuously improve already is not likely to be swayed by the requirement of the standard and is also not likely to survive to implement 2000. So, some may look at it as not too much of a change, except for more records required to prove improvement.

Also, especially with the poor economy/state of business in many market sectors, money is very tight and personnel are stretched thin. Upgrading to 2000 costs time and money and unless management truly believes that the switch will pay-off for them, why do it now? Like any other business decision, it is based on the perceived cost vs. benefits.

Just MHO.

Mike S.
 

Marc

Hunkered Down for the Duration
Staff member
Admin
#8
gpainter said:

I had put up a post similar to this a while back. I believe Marc was going to respond on his experiences to date of the problems that he has encountered or anyone else for that manner.
I've addressed the upgrades in a number of threads. The bottom line is I have done 4, one of which added ISO 14001 at the same time. All were former clients which I worked with during their original implementation. None had to add any systems or such. None took over 5 working days to change documentation and such. But - 2 were very small companies and the other 2 were under 300 people.

I personally believe the biggest change is in the ISO and consultant rhetoric. My opinion is people are reading much too much into the 'changes' - over interpreting. Seeing things they want to see which aren't there (see recent thread on Continuous Improvement).

It is interesting to look back at companies I worked with during their registration. In fact I'm sitting at a desk in the same company I started playing with ISO with 10 years ago. I'm not here for ISO - I'm completing a number of PPAPs and working with several customers in the Corrective Action end of things. But as I think back over the upgrades at other companies I worked with and I think of what they were and what they now are - heck, I can show tons of continuous improvement totally unrelated to ISO. Companies evolve and to survive (compete) they either corner the market (ala Enron), have political ties (ala Carlisle and the military industrial complex) or they continuously improve.

None of the companies are particularly unhappy about their ISO trip, but none any longer sees ISO as a tool. They say ISO 9K was most useful during the implementation phase - new thinking, new set of eyes and all that. But now - it's just a yearly game where you Pay The Man. As one company owner said: "If the auditors would just take the money and not come it would be fine with me."

I will also say all 4 - registered for a number of years now - have entirely classified their registrations as a business expense, although they were initially enthuseastic. It has become another business game.

Each of these companies was making good product when I first was involved with them years back (marketing and/or customer requirement came along) and nothing has changed there. ISO 9K has not improved anything they would not have anyway - or so they say.

(NOTE: Throw rocks now and get it over with folks...) :thedeal:
 
#9
Of throwing rocks

Okay, I'm not going to throw any rocks. Here is how I present it (kinda like what you were saying Marc). Going for ISO is sorta like getting in shape. If all of the Cove folks decided to get into shape (we are talking about our bodies here). Some of us would see much more improvement than others, simply because some of us are much more out of shape. Those that are in good shape already will see little return, but also will have to spend less energy to get there.

With companies going for ISO (QS, too), it is much the same. I've worked with companies that were already doing things right. The effort needed to achieve registration was minimal, but so was the improvement. In one company, we found enough process improvement to pay for the entire 3-year registration (including my fees) in our first six months!

What you get out of ISO will depend on where you are now, and how much you put into it.
 

Mike S.

Happy to be Alive
Trusted Information Resource
#10
db,

Good analogy. Taking the analogy further we find the diet/fitness consultants, advice columnists, self-help books, membership clubs, on-line forums, fads, deceptive advertising, good-guys, bad guys, cheating, success stories, failure stories, and paradoxes that are analogous to the same kind of people/issues in the ISO game. But maybe physical fitness is a bit more quantifiable, at a lower cost, than QMS fitness!

Mike S.:smokin:
 
Thread starter Similar threads Forum Replies Date
Proud Liberal Improving low p-value Statistical Analysis Tools, Techniques and SPC 13
BeaBea Registrars with VAR (Value Added Reseller) experience Registrars and Notified Bodies 6
qualprod Best approach to get a real value as average? Statistical Analysis Tools, Techniques and SPC 6
F Missing value of Uncertainty B Measurement Uncertainty (MU) 8
F Calibration certificate content - Average Value and True Value ISO 17025 related Discussions 6
S In BAC5300 we have machining mismatch allowed is 3tau, what is the value of tau? Document Control Systems, Procedures, Forms and Templates 1
S Change value of target during a batch Capability, Accuracy and Stability - Processes, Machines, etc. 0
A Acceptance p-value for linearity and bias analysis in minitab results Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 0
A Torque Value for Different types of Fasteners (Socket Head, Button Head, CSK) Manufacturing and Related Processes 2
M IATF 16949 - 8.5.6.1.1 Providing a list of process controls: Does this requirement add value to QMS? IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 4
qualprod Cycle times, value stream mapping, inventory, average values? Lean in Manufacturing and Service Industries 1
Ashok sunder What are the criteria for setting a target KPI value against a quality objective? Benchmarking 7
S Adding Value prior to signing EASA Form 1 EASA and JAA Aviation Standards and Requirements 5
M Creating a Plant Level Value Stream Map Process Maps, Process Mapping and Turtle Diagrams 1
A IMDS - Changing the Locked Weight Value RoHS, REACH, ELV, IMDS and Restricted Substances 1
T Value Chain Map for Food Services Industry Service Industry Specific Topics 1
O P-Value less than 0.05. but everything else in control Statistical Analysis Tools, Techniques and SPC 19
qualprod P x I = Value interpretation for residual risk? ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 1
O CPK with a P value less than 0.005 Manufacturing and Related Processes 8
G What degrees of freedom means in uncertainty budget and how do I set the value Measurement Uncertainty (MU) 2
Q Really do they add value (Vision, Mission, Values)? ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 1
D What is the exact Temperature Coefficient Value to be set on a Conductivity Meter? General Measurement Device and Calibration Topics 2
M Value Stream Mapping Calculations Process Maps, Process Mapping and Turtle Diagrams 5
L How to interpret the average R bar Value shown in the R Chart Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 2
G Non Value Added Corrective Actions IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 15
R How To Calculate & Print CDF and Lower Bound CDF value for some t(time) with Minitab? Using Minitab Software 1
P Purpose of calculating Uncertainty value in calibration study Measurement Uncertainty (MU) 5
J Agenda of Value Stream Mapping workshop required Quality Tools, Improvement and Analysis 1
M What is the value of documenting in-process rework for easily-detectable issues? Quality Manager and Management Related Issues 4
R VSM - Value Stream Mapping (catheter manufacturing unit) Customer Complaints 10
W Quality for value adding or certification? ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 23
T Cpk for 0 as Ideal Value Statistical Analysis Tools, Techniques and SPC 1
dubrizo Internal Audit Value - What is the point of conducting internal audits to a checklist Internal Auditing 40
L 5 minutes only for this Survey on the Value of PDCA and Your EMS Miscellaneous Environmental Standards and EMS Related Discussions 1
M How calculate P value for Linearity and Bias using Excel Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 8
J F and P-value in L9 Taguchi Design Using Minitab Software 22
Sean Kelley Value of Ppk or Cpk when targeting thinner material Statistical Analysis Tools, Techniques and SPC 4
B How to validate Microsoft Excel Spreadsheet Calculations for the Cpk value Capability, Accuracy and Stability - Processes, Machines, etc. 9
V Analysis of 'Value Added' System & Process Steps - Inspection Pharmaceuticals (21 CFR Part 210, 21 CFR Part 211 and related Regulations) 2
P Which ISO 13485 clause(es) are applicable for Value Proposition Creation ISO 13485:2016 - Medical Device Quality Management Systems 1
R The Value and Effectiveness of In Process Inspection Quality Manager and Management Related Issues 17
D Value-Added Analysis - Staff (Employee) Satisfaction Quality Tools, Improvement and Analysis 11
T ISO Auditor Training - What online training is actually value added? ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 13
M Specific Capability case - Target Value is same as the Lower Limit Capability, Accuracy and Stability - Processes, Machines, etc. 9
S GR&R for an "R" value instrument installed on my 10K Horizontal Tester Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 5
S Value Stream Mapping for a Product Family Lean in Manufacturing and Service Industries 5
WCHorn Are Inspection Operations Value Added? Lean in Manufacturing and Service Industries 50
J How does Layout Inspection determine Reference Value? Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 1
S Labeling Medical/Health Value Claims with No Sources to Back Up EU Medical Device Regulations 1
W DIN ISO 1101 - Show me the General Dimensioning Tolerance Value Other ISO and International Standards and European Regulations 3

Similar threads

Top Bottom