The Value of Turtle Diagrams in Process Auditing

Helmut Jilling

Auditor / Consultant
#11
Some find them useful. Some do not. I don't much care for them purely due to the time it takes to map them out, for an auditor that takes away very precious audit time. As an auditor, if a client has them, I look at them, but not usually in depth. One of the big reasons I don't pay that much attention to them is that often they are not very accurate. Someone was assigned to develop them that is not fully versed on the company's structure and practice.

I sort of look at them as an ivory tower exercise.
Actually, I like them for two reasons, but I recommend they should not be filled out by auditors.

1. They are a simple, useful tool for managers to fill out to describe the details of their processes in an ISO-style format. It acquaints them a little with the ISO process approach format.

2. Then, if they exist, the auditors can use them to make audit notes.

They are not a super comprehensive tool, and Engineers generally don't respect them. But, I have seen them help inexperienced managers and auditors a lot.
 
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Paul Simpson

Trusted Information Resource
#12
<snip>1. They are a simple, useful tool for managers to fill out to describe the details of their processes in an ISO-style format. It acquaints them a little with the ISO process approach format.</snip>
Really? Now I'm intrigued. ;)

I thought they were a tool to teach '20 clause' auditors how to look at processes with a different set of eyes.

I'm fascinated to know what this 'ISO-style format' is.
 

Jen Kirley

Quality and Auditing Expert
Staff member
Admin
#13
I used to make detailed checklists based on a deep review of process specs. Now that I've been made Document Queen there isn't much time for deep-dive auditing so I made the turtle notes I attached in the ISO 9001 Audit Checklist Excel .xls Template thread. They help me stay on track and cover all the aspects of the process audit.
 

Helmut Jilling

Auditor / Consultant
#14
Really? Now I'm intrigued. ;)

I thought they were a tool to teach '20 clause' auditors how to look at processes with a different set of eyes.

I'm fascinated to know what this 'ISO-style format' is.
I suppose the Turtle was put out as an auditor device. But, as was already stated, it seems silly to waste auditor time filling them out each time, with the same information.

But, I found it to be a simple tool to help managers who are not very experienced with ISO-style process approach, get a better understanding of inputs/outputs, and some of the linkages in a process. Not a bad worksheet. Think of it as process approach with training wheels.

Also, if they exist in the QMS, as part of the process description exercise, I find them to be useful to scribble some of the audit notes, because much of the notes I would write during an audit would already be there. I just hav eto add the details I am auditing right then. Saves auditors time, and lets them focus more on the auditing.

Sophisticated processes benefit from full flowcharts, but some of the simpler ones, or non-linear processes, do well with just a procedure and a turtle.

I already said Engineers don't generally like tool, they are too "simple," but it is not a bad tool. They also exist in Lean and Six Sigma, as SIPOCs.
 

Paul Simpson

Trusted Information Resource
#15
Well it is interesting to get an insight into the 3rd party auditor's point of view.
I suppose the Turtle was put out as an auditor device. But, as was already stated, it seems silly to waste auditor time filling them out each time, with the same information.
Now forgive me but nobody said they had to be filled out anew each time. Also the question is 'are they of use' and if so how should they be used. Now if I go back into my memory I know auditors are supposed to keep records of their audit so can these diagrams form part of the evidence that they have done a competent audit and understand the systems they are looking at?

But, I found it to be a simple tool to help managers who are not very experienced with ISO-style process approach, get a better understanding of inputs/outputs, and some of the linkages in a process. Not a bad worksheet. Think of it as process approach with training wheels.
I take it this is training is when you are consulting rather than auditing. I still don't understand the reference to an 'ISO-style process approach' - perhaps you can explain?

Also, if they exist in the QMS, as part of the process description exercise, I find them to be useful to scribble some of the audit notes, because much of the notes I would write during an audit would already be there. I just hav eto add the details I am auditing right then. Saves auditors time, and lets them focus more on the auditing.
Again I am not sure where the time is being spent if it is not in understanding the system and recording evidence of compliance / non compliance. I'm not sure how this contributes to the discussion over whether turtle diagrams are a useful audit tool.

Sophisticated processes benefit from full flowcharts, but some of the simpler ones, or non-linear processes, do well with just a procedure and a turtle.
I take it when you write 'procedure' you mean 'documented procedure'? Would you expect a documented procedure and a turtle diagram for a simple process? Is this TS or plain old vanilla ISO 9001 you would require this for?


I already said Engineers don't generally like tool, they are too "simple," but it is not a bad tool. They also exist in Lean and Six Sigma, as SIPOCs.
I am aware of SIPOC use in six sigma but not in lean. Lean tends to be about value stream mapping.
 
K

kgott

#16
Righto; The audit I'm going to do the next day or say is a compliance audit for the safety department (compliance to our organsaitons requirements, compliance to the clients compliance and legislative compliance)

This is a small contract ($50k) It required a scientist to visit a remote location and observe turtle egg laying and hatching during a the construction of a small O&G facility on a remote beach.




I have put the following questions together in an attempt to see how:
  • the project identified the compliance requirements in the three areas
  • what training the project manager has had in complaince requirements
  • the sources the project manager used to identify the compliance requirements from
  • how did they apply the compliance requirements to the project
  • who reviewed the complaince requirements and:
  • what happen if complaince requirements are not met;
Please review and comment on adequacy of these questions:

  • Tell me what you do (explain what this project is about)
  • How did you go about identifying what the compliance requirements for this contact?
  • Is there a document that tells you how to identify what the compliance requirements for a project are?
  • How do you know what legislation applies and what does not apply to the project?
  • how did you make sure that all applicable safety legislation was complied with?
  • How did you identify the clients requirements?
  • Do you have a list of them?
  • How do you identify what our organsation's requirements are for this contract?
  • Is there a document that tells you what our requirements are for a contract?
  • How do you go about implementing the our requirements?
  • What evidence have you got that these requirements have been implemented?
  • what evidence did you collect to ensure all requirements were met?
  • how did you establish wether or not all compliance requirements were met?
  • what did you do when a requirement was not met?
  • Are you required to report compliance issues as part of the project reporting process?
thank you
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Randy

Super Moderator
#17
:topic:Turtle? That's a glob of milk chocolate with peanuts and some caramel isn't it?

I find Turtles real useful, but not since I started keeping weight off
 

Crusader

Trusted Information Resource
#18
:topic:Turtle? That's a glob of milk chocolate with peanuts and some caramel isn't it?

I find Turtles real useful, but not since I started keeping weight off
:lmao: Perfect!

Me....I don't use the Turtle thing and I don't care for their taste.:rolleyes:
My registrar certainly does not use them either. I've noticed that each assessor has their own method of recording their own audit. Interesting, huh?
 

Big Jim

Super Moderator
#19
I take it this is training is when you are consulting rather than auditing. I still don't understand the reference to an 'ISO-style process approach' - perhaps you can explain?
I would think this could be treated as a "value added" topic, not necessarily as consulting. Would you not agree?
 
K

kgott

#20
Seeing how I started this thread seeking a bit of help and seeing how its got a bit hijacked by some guninely interesting but off topic stuff

I'll repost something thats important to me but got lost in the to and fro.

So; The audit I'm going to do in the next day or say is a compliance audit for the safety department (compliance to our organsaitons requirements, compliance to the clients compliance and legislative compliance)

This is a small contract ($50k) It required a scientist to visit a remote location and observe turtle (no pun intended) egg laying and hatching during a the construction of a small O&G facility on a remote beach.

I have put the following questions together as my first foray into process auditing, and, in an attempt to see how:
  • the project identified the compliance requirements in the three areas
  • what training the project manager has had in complaince requirements
  • the sources the project manager used to identify the compliance requirements from
  • how did they apply the compliance requirements to the project
  • who reviewed the complaince requirements and:
  • what happen if complaince requirements are not met;
Please review and comment on adequacy of these questions:
  • Tell me what you do (explain what this project is about)
  • How did you go about identifying what the compliance requirements for this contact?
  • Is there a document that tells you how to identify what the compliance requirements for a project are?
  • How do you know what legislation applies and what does not apply to the project?
  • how did you make sure that all applicable safety legislation was complied with?
  • How did you identify the clients requirements?
  • Do you have a list of them?
  • How do you identify what our organsation's requirements are for this contract?
  • Is there a document that tells you what our requirements are for a contract?
  • How do you go about implementing the our requirements?
  • What evidence have you got that these requirements have been implemented?
  • what evidence did you collect to ensure all requirements were met?
  • how did you establish wether or not all compliance requirements were met?
  • what did you do when a requirement was not met?
  • Are you required to report compliance issues as part of the project reporting process?
thanks
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