Thinking about a New Job for New Year?

Wes Bucey

Prophet of Profit
Jim Wynne and Brad seem to be on opposite sides of the coin when it comes to "details" in a resume of cover letter.

My view and that of most "experts" is that each cover letter should be unique to the target company, preferably addressed to an individual by name, not generic job title. Read through the Gatekeeper thread to learn how to get that name. Continuing that vein, it follows you have learned enough about the target to know what will interest them in YOU.

Think of the guy who opens your letter - his first thought is "Ho hum. Another letter." Next, he looks at the clock and asks, "Isn't it five o'clock, yet?"

You need a "grabber" to get his attention. Sometimes (just sometimes, Jim), your research will show this target is extremely worried about getting certified to a Standard to avoid losing a valued client. That's when you might lead off with the brag, "I led my company to complete registration certification to TS16949 in less than six months with zero nonconformances. I'd like to talk with you to explore how I might help your company achieve its own certification to TS 16949."

The point is, no details UNLESS they are pertinent to the target company and the position you seek. If you are applying as a CMM operator, nobody at that target company cares if you are the best selling author of "Sales Strategies for Real Estate Brokers" no matter how much the real estate community loves you.

Bottom line:
Don't include it in resume or cover letter unless it is pertinent to the position. If you do include it, explain how it is pertinent to the target company - some guys are so zoned out when reading cover letters, they can't "connect the dots" by themselves!
 

Wes Bucey

Prophet of Profit
Similarly, do not raise a topic in the interview unless it shows how you can provide a benefit the target NEEDS!

Always think of the interview points you want to make which will make you memorable and desirable to the target. One of the better ways is to make a point and then tell a brief (60 - 90 seconds) story to fix that point in the interviewer's memory. Time yourself and rehearse so the story seems to come forth spontaneously and you won't stammer like you are making it up on the fly.

More to come - stay tuned!
 

BradM

Leader
Admin
Ok, so I read that your experience tends to lean more towards what I perceive Jim to be stressing. Don't get overly specific in the resume. Keep the specific (but relevant) details in the cover letter. Do all potential interviewers read cover letters?

Now, when you are discussing experience in the resume, do you put # years, or is that too much detail?

Please don't take this wrong. I am not arguing with anybody. I am just trying to understand the different quirks of the different people who review resumes. I have learned to give ears to those who have reviewed thousands of resumes, for their turn on's and turn off's.

1. Do you have any suggestions for ascertaining how you should contruct your resume for a particular job? Detailed, or less detailed? Should one construct different resumes for a quality manager, than say a plant engineer?

2. Are the resume readers (automated machines) still used, and how can you tell if a potential interviewer uses a resume reader?
 

Wes Bucey

Prophet of Profit
Ok, so I read that your experience tends to lean more towards what I perceive Jim to be stressing. Don't get overly specific in the resume. Keep the specific (but relevant) details in the cover letter. Do all potential interviewers read cover letters?

Now, when you are discussing experience in the resume, do you put # years, or is that too much detail?

Please don't take this wrong. I am not arguing with anybody. I am just trying to understand the different quirks of the different people who review resumes. I have learned to give ears to those who have reviewed thousands of resumes, for their turn on's and turn off's.

1. Do you have any suggestions for ascertaining how you should construct your resume for a particular job? Detailed, or less detailed? Should one construct different resumes for a quality manager, than say a plant engineer?

2. Are the resume readers (automated machines) still used, and how can you tell if a potential interviewer uses a resume reader?
First - there are no "dumb" questions here in this thread.

From my own experience and from experience related to me by folks whose opinions I trust - there are a lot of clueless folks writing resumes and cover letters, matched only by the number of clueless folks in both the gatekeeper and decision maker roles who are reading (or not) those resumes.

I can almost guarantee you that if you are writing to the human resource department of a large international corporation or to a big-time recruiting company (the kind that have hundreds of ads in Monster.com), your cover letter and resume will be screened by scanning software looking for key words. Guess what - those clueless readers will also be looking for the same key words even if they don't have automatic readers. If the ad you are answering says "six sigma black belt" - you'd better use that exact term, too, or your submission will be rejected!

Many of the internet job sites have links to articles on writing resumes and cover letters to get past "key word screening." Check 'em out. If you don't understand them, come back here with the link and we'll parse them out together.

Remember this - the primary purpose of the resume and cover letter is to get you to an interview - ALWAYS ASK FOR AN INTERVIEW IN THE COVER LETTER!

If you truly follow the tips in the gatekeeper thread, you will KNOW what the decision maker who calls you in for an interview needs to know about you and your qualifications to compel him to ask you to come in. The person who makes that decision may NOT be the one who interviews you.

A clueless interviewer will read an item out loud from your resume and say something stupid like, "Is this true?" You must resist the temptation to say, "Of course, you idiot!" Instead, use the opportunity of a clueless interviewer to take control of the interview AND the interviewer by leading off with the points you want to make.

Consider this response, "I'm glad you asked that. It reminds me to tell you how my experience seems to fit EXACTLY with an issue I've learned is facing your organization . . ."

"Another thing I've learned is . . . Let me tell you how I faced the SAME type of situation and SUCCESSFULLY handled it. Let's talk about how I can help you and your organization with the situation you now face."

One of the most common idiot questions is "Where do you see yourself in five years?" Let me hear how some of you answered it if it came up in one of your interviews, then I'll talk about the REAL info the clueless guy needs to know to satisfy him and some possible answers you can give which will give him that info without calling attention to what an idiot he is being in the interview.
 

Wes Bucey

Prophet of Profit
Re: New job for New Year?

I've thought about this a little and decided it would be better to address this in a cover (no pun intended) letter. Basically stating "Look at the brilliant things I've posted that demonstrate expertise in the skills and knowledge-base you listed in you job announcement: Link1, Link2, .... If I can do this at the Cove, think how much better I could do it as part of a full-time job."

Of course, this assumes that you have posted brilliant things that match the job you are applying for. :)


Another tack might be "We can't all be experts at everything, but I am part of one of the premier networks of quality professionals. Any time I need, I can get answers to just about any quality-related question, like Link1 or Link2. If you hire me, you also get this network."


Tim F
I wanted to acknowledge reading this post and to remark that I actually liked the "Cover" pun.

Regardless -the point is this is material for an interview if you reach a point where you may not appear to have ALL the knowledge and experience necessary for the job. Consider this as part and parcel of membership in a professional association where you are getting continual continuing education in your field. Sell the Cove relationship in the same way.
 
G

Gert Sorensen

From my own experience and from experience related to me by folks whose opinions I trust - there are a lot of clueless folks writing resumes and cover letters, matched only by the number of clueless folks in both the gatekeeper and decision maker roles who are reading (or not) those resumes.

Only too true, I've been on both sides of the desk, and IMHO cluelessness is just a human trait. Too bad though, that it wastes so much time for both the interviewer and the interviewee

Guess what - those clueless readers will also be looking for the same key words even if they don't have automatic readers. If the ad you are answering says "six sigma black belt" - you'd better use that exact term, too, or your submission will be rejected!

I once got rejected for a position - during the screening process - and was told that it was because I did not know about HACCP and GMP. The clueless git had not noticed nor understood the significance of a bachelor degree in food science and 5 years of working in QA in the medical device sector.....:notme:

"Where do you see yourself in five years?" Let me hear how some of you answered it if it came up in one of your interviews
Well, the question does give an indication of the interviewer, right? I once lost it right there when I said Definitely not here! I know I shouldn't have, but boy was she a nuisance!!
 

Manix

Get Involved!!!
Trusted Information Resource
The point is, no details UNLESS they are pertinent to the target company and the position you seek. If you are applying as a CMM operator, nobody at that target company cares if you are the best selling author of "Sales Strategies for Real Estate Brokers" no matter how much the real estate community loves you.

I agree that the details of this best selling title maybe irrelevant, however I do not agree that something a pertinent as writing a best selling book should be left out of a CV. These kind of things, have value and may not be specific to the job but show the employer that there is some substance to you and that you can achieve a high level and quality of work. A bit of variation in your background is always a good thing, though obviously I agree with your targeting the CV at the job in hand.

Thanks to you all, this thread will come in useful one day!
 
M

Martijn

humor has its place, but never in the resume or cover letter and rarely in the interview.

Agree on resume and cover letter, but not the interview. I think that humor can be a very important personal skill that can be very helpful to certain positions where interaction with people is vital.

The real tricky part in using humor during a job interview is obviously using the right type of humor, which means reading the interviewers character, assessing his sense of humor and the right timing (probably best when the official part of the interview is done and you're rounding up with some chit chat, make sure it shows that you know when it's time for serious business and time for a tension breaker.). Making people laugh is bonding and shows off some emotional intelligence. It can even be the decisive unique personal skill that might get you the job ("he might not have the best resume, but he will get that department in motion").

Now let's just say that you pull of a witty / funny remark, and it does get appreciated, it still might not go down too well in the end if they are looking for somebody without humor (I'm thinking accountants myself ;-)). But then, would you want that job?
 

harry

Trusted Information Resource
Originally Posted by Wes Bucey

One of the most common idiot questions is "Where do you see yourself in five years?" Let me hear how some of you answered it if it came up in one of your interviews, then I'll talk about the REAL info the clueless guy needs to know to satisfy him and some possible answers you can give which will give him that info without calling attention to what an idiot he is being in the interview.

Q: Where do you see yourself in five years?

A: Hmm, do you mean the ideal situation or if I am employed here? (And before he/she can answer me) Ideally, I would like to progress to a position as the XYZ manager. However, if I am employed here, things would pretty much hinged on both myself and the company. By the way, can you tell me what my career path be like should I join your organisation?

Wes, for discussion purpose, this is one way which I'll like to answer that question.


Regards.
 
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Martijn

Q: Where do you see yourself in five years?

A: Hmm, do you mean the ideal situation or if I am employed here?

As in, being employed by them is not ideal, or being employed is not ideal in general. :lol:
 
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