Thousands of part numbers and various items - PPAP questions

[56flh]

Our company produces thousands of part numbers and items varying in size from small screw machine produced parts up to thousand pound individual machined assemblies. In the last three years or so I have gotten PPAP requests from more and more of our larger OEM customers and I am wondering how this process should be applied.

When I am reading the PPAP manual it seems that this is oriented more towards a batch process where a sample of a quantity produced is used to produce the PPAP rather than a specialized process that may produce ten items in a day, or even one item, which is the situation I am in.

It seems like I am spending more time assembling a PPAP than some of our machining centers spend on producing a part and I'm wondering if some of you are charging a customer for the time involved in this endevor.

 

[howste]

Yes, some companies are charging customers for PPAPs. Everything in business is negotiable.

 

[Howard Atkins]

I think that some or most of these requests are not relevant


Page 1 of the PPAP handbook

Purpose
Production Part Approval Process (PPAP) defines generic requirements for production part approval, including production and bulk materials (see Glossary). The purpose of PPAP is to determine if all customer engineering design record and specification requirements are properly understood by the organization and that the manufacturing process has the potential to produce product consistently meeting
these requirements during an actual production run at the quoted production rate.

Applicability
PPAP shall apply to internal and external organization sites (see Glossary) supplying production parts, service parts, production materials, or bulk materials. For bulk materials, PPAP is not required unless specified by the authorized customer representative.
An organization supplying standard catalog production or service parts shall comply with PPAP unless formally waived by the authorized customer representative.
NOTE 1: See customer-specific requirements for additional information. All questions about PPAP should be addressed to the authorized customer representative.
NOTE 2: A customer can formally waive PPAP requirements for an organization, Such waivers can only be issued by an authorized customer representative.
NOTE 3: An organization or supplier requesting a waiver of a PPAP requirement should contact the authorized customer representative. The organization or supplier should obtain documentation of waivers
from the authorized customer representative.
NOTE 4: Catalog parts (e.g., bolts) are identified and or ordered by functional specifications or by recognized industry standards.

In to many cases the request is received and no one asks if it is really necessary. Check where the requirement is coming from, in to many cases the request is from people who do not know what they are talking about.

Good Luck

 

[RandT]

Yes, some companies are charging customers for PPAPs. Everything in business is negotiable.

That is a slippery slope; if I ever had a supplier charge for preparing a PPAP, I would live for the the day when they requested an internal process change that helped their operation.

"Sure, I would be interested in discussing your internal process change. But as you know, I will need to process a re PPAP for the change and that is an awful lot of work. How about you pay $$$ and I will approve it."

 

[bobdoering]

That is a slippery slope; if I ever had a supplier charge for preparing a PPAP, I would live for the the day when they requested an internal process change that helped their operation.

"Sure, I would be interested in discussing your internal process change. But as you know, I will need to process a re PPAP for the change and that is an awful lot of work. How about you pay $$$ and I will approve it."

Shoot - I have already heard that argument from OEMs even without paying for PPAPs. In fact, if they claimed if they didn't get a cash payback (even if it dramatically increases productivity or quality) to cover approval costs (which, due to their 'efficiency' is radically expensive), they won't commit the resources to approve the change. So, we continue to wallow in our "tried to continually improve until stiffed by the OEM" misery.

 

[Rob Nix]

As my PPAPpy always said, "To the one with only a hammer, everything looks like a nail". The customer will assume every supplier will abide by his PPAP requirements unless you tell him differently. You can either charge up front as a line item, bury it into the overall price, or, during the quote stage explain how you would like to meet the intent of the PPAP requirement using a modified method (that doesn't bury you in costs), and lowers the price for the customer.

If you accept the RFQ and PO as is, it becomes your problem and no one else's.

 

[bobdoering]

If you accept the RFQ and PO as is, it becomes your problem and no one else's.

Or, worse yet, anyone else accepts the RFQ and PO as is!

 

[Jim Wynne]

As my PPAPpy always said, "To the one with only a hammer, everything looks like a nail". The customer will assume every supplier will abide by his PPAP requirements unless you tell him differently. You can either charge up front as a line item, bury it into the overall price, or, during the quote stage explain how you would like to meet the intent of the submission using a modified method (that doesn't bury you in costs), and lowers the price for the customer.

If you accept the RFQ and PO as is, it becomes your problem and no one else's.

Hey Rob--good to see you here again!

 

[julsbear]

PPAPy, LMAO

 

[gregtt]

It is designed for use on a software documentation control system, but if the customer requests the documentation it's a legal requirement under contract law, I had a BOM with 6000 parts and no customers ever asked for documents on production quality control, also it may be delivered on a CD unless the customer can't use the CD, VOLO does this as a SOP, If it's a start-up cost of the production, charge for it in the setup fee, this is also SOP for job shops!