Tier 2 & Tier 3 Documents Numbering scheme (Level 2 and Level 3) documents

E

energy

#1
Does anyone have a numbering scheme to identify level 2 and 3 documents under the revised standard. For example, currently we would use QP 209 as level 2 for Process Control. Level 3 documents would start as 309, etc. A form would be 409. If it were element 5 it would be 205 and so on. With the new numbering system it looks like it will be more difficult. Management is resisting the idea of using a matrix to cross reference procedures to the new standard. As usual, I'm looking for something that even I can understand.
 
Elsmar Forum Sponsor
D

Dan Larsen

#2
Energy,

Numbering systems...this will open a can of worms, I'm sure :)

My approach...

I try to number the policy manual consistent (in some way!) with the standard. For ISO 9000:2000, I use ISO section 4 = My section 1, ISO section 5 = My section 2, etc.

I tend to number the procedures consistent with the policy. For example, a procedure for document control might be numbered 1.01, a procedure for management review might be numbered 2.01.

By the time I get to instructions, I move to a system that makes sense internally. I might group generasl quality system instructions in a section 1, process instructions in a section 2, inspection instructions in a section 3, etc. I tend to make the section breaks at the instruction level with the way the company views it's processes.

The form numbering pretty much follows the instrutions. For example, forms related to inspection would be numbered in the "300" sequence.

The bottom line: I tend to keep the policy and procedures numbered somewhat consistent in a unified manner with the standard; I tend to number the instructions and forms using a system that's consistent with the internal process flow.

My philosophy has been: I want my policy and procedures tied to a quality system that's universal; once I move to instructions and forms, I want a system that matches the way the people think internally. The people making the translation between policy/procedures to instructions/forms generally have to think both ways...but then that's what the managers are paid to do...interpret.

Just my thoughts...the REAL bottom line is that the numbering system has to make sense to users of the system!
 
D

Dan Larsen

#3
An after thought...

If you have a numbering system that everyone is comfortable with already, maybe the thing to do is slide the new requirements into your current numbering system in a place that makes sense to you. Then create a cross reference matrix (not much different than the matrix included in the standard) that tells the external auditor where to look for the new requirements.

The auditor (one person) may have a tough time figuring out the relationship, but your users (many persons) should have an easier time. Who should suffer...one or many? :D

Added PS...I realize your management balking at the matrix, but maybe because they see it as something the company is going to have to use internally on a routine basis. I guess I see matrix as something that is designed more for those outside your system, a directory in a way, telling the external user where you've addressed the elements. Internal users of the system, I sdon't believe, would have to use the matrix at all. I use a tool like this to lead the ISO 17025 requirements into an ISO 9000 based quality manual.

[This message has been edited by Dan Larsen (edited 22 March 2001).]
 
A

Al Dyer

#4
Consider the can opened, let's give it a shot:

QS-000 Level I Policy Manual

QS-011 Level II Procedure (4.1 Management Review)
QS-021 Level II Procedure (4.2 Quality System)
QS-031 Level II Procedure (4.3 Contract Review)
QS-041 Level II Procedure (4.4 Design)
etc...
etc...
etc...

QS-171 Level II Procedure (4.17 Internal Audit)

qs-171A Level III Form (Audit Initiation)
qs-171B Level III Form (Audit Checksheet)
qs-171C Level III Form (Audit C/A Sheet)

wi-171-01 Level III Instruction (Audit Initiation)
wi-171-02 Level III Instruction (Audit Reporting)
wi-171-03 Level III Instruction (Audit Closure)

Hard to get the point across in this format but the intent is to have all documents under the element trace back to the controlling procedure.

Capital "QS" prefix always designates the Policy or a Procedure.

Small "qs" prefix always designates a form related to the procedure.

Small "wi" prefix always designates a work instruction called out in a Procedure or Form.

ASD...


[This message has been edited by Al Dyer (edited 22 March 2001).]
 
E

energy

#5
Al,
My 1974 version documents are numbered in such a way that they are all traceable to the applicable elements. I'm thinking about the new version that has essentially done away with the 20 elements as we know them. Now we have "sections?" that make it a cut and paste task to re-locate the pertinent information from the old element procedures to the new ones.
Current Example: QP-214-03 Customer Complaint/Feedback Tier 2
Referenced Documents are: Quality Procedure QP-201-01 Management Responsibility
— Quality Procedure QP-213-01 Control of Nonconforming Product
— Quality Procedure QP-213-02 Material Review Board
— Quality Procedure QP-214-01 Corrective and Preventive Action
— Quality Form QP-FM-414-?1 Customer Complaint Form (not crafted yet)
— Quality Form QP-FM-413-02 MRB Report
Quality Form QP-FM-414-01 Corrective Action Request

It is easy to see where the documents are by element. The Procedure "Book" is broken down according to the 20 elements. Hey Al, I'm getting a head ache.
Energy
 
A

Al Dyer

#6
Energy,

I feel the pain, let alone setting up a numbering system, it is equally as hard to keep it up and explain its relevence in interfacing with other documents.

As said before, the most important aspect is to keep it simple so all employees understand and comply.

Depending on the size of the company there may even be a person who is soley the Document Control Coordinator.

This is one area where I think there are some good canned packages that can reduce the pain.

ASD...
 

barb butrym

Quite Involved in Discussions
#8
use what ever will make it easy for the user to find what he/she needs to read.

i used to use an ISo based system but the typical user has no clue what element to go to. Now I tailor it to each company
 
E

energy

#9
Barb,
It has been my experience that "users" don't use procedures. They know their jobs so well that they don't need no stinkin procedures. After all, they were written with their input and only written to comply with written work instructions. For the Level 2 stuff, controlled copies are distributed to the cognizant parties who also participated in their creation. My selfish reason for a simplified numbering system is to answer auditor's questions without remembering what sections contain what. I'm going to have the manual crafted in the ISO9000:2000 version with my existing Level 2's referenced as the are, by elements, using the matrix in the standard. As long as I can show where we have addressed the requirements in writing, I'm comfortable. For those "users" who fail to demonstrate to the auditor their knowledge of the procedure or it's location, woe to them.
 
E

energy

#10
"I don't need no stinkin procedures" reflects the impact that ISO requirements have on the worker bees and some management types. We, the QA geeks (Mgt Reps) need the documentation to satisfy Auditors. (I'm posting again to try to restore my light bulbs)and cookies
 
Thread starter Similar threads Forum Replies Date
N How are YOUR tier 2 documents numbered? Document Control Systems, Procedures, Forms and Templates 16
optomist1 Survey of Tier 1 & Tier 2 suppliers APQP and PPAP 6
qualprod What tier number fits in a company producing paper labels stuck on automotive parts? IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 7
J AS9104-1 Clause 18.1 (a) (b) - Organizations (contractor) shall be required to allow access to Tier 2 data AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 7
noratkhen Eligibility to get a IATF 16949 certificate for a Tier N>3 supplier? IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 25
L Informational IATF 16949 certification requirement for Tier 2/Tier 3 Suppliers IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 15
J IATF Minimum Automotive Quality Management System Requirements for Sub-Tier Suppliers IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 12
D Supplier Scorecard, Assessment of Pass Through Items From Sub Tier Suppliers Supplier Quality Assurance and other Supplier Issues 4
T PPAP - Complaint from a Tier One customer concerning Product Dimension IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 26
xfngrs CQI-19 Sub-Tier Supplier Management IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 1
P Tier 2 Part Approval where Painting is Outsourced APQP and PPAP 2
Manix Automotive Warranty Process at Tier 1 Level Challenges and Development Considerations Quality Manager and Management Related Issues 2
Buckyb Boeing QMS Requirements for Tier 2 Distributors AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 20
R Tier 2 Laboratory Accreditation IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 3
M Key Supplier Risk Mitigation - Supplier Changes or wants to change Sub-Tier Suppliers Supplier Quality Assurance and other Supplier Issues 5
M Are OEM requirements (CSR) applicable to Tier 2 Suppliers IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 3
J We anneal aluminum tube (tier 2, bulk material) - Does CQI-9 apply to us? IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 4
M CAPA (Corrective and Preventive Action) Standards & Templates for Tier 1 Supplier IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 4
P Problem with TS 16949 System Scope in Tier 2 Company IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 3
T Diversity Vendor (Supplier) Requirements for Tier 1 and 2 Companies Customer and Company Specific Requirements 3
H Tier 1 ISO/TS 16949 Subscribers (Origin of TS 16949) IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 9
B Supplier Development - TS 16949 Flow Down Requirements - Tier 2 Supplier IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 13
K TS 16949 Tier 2 Customer Specific Requirements? IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 9
T Reopening a Closed Division - Multi-division tier 2 automotive supplier IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 7
P Must show Sub-Supplier details? Supplying a Tier 2 company IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 7
V Are Customer Specific Requirements applied to the second tier suppliers Customer and Company Specific Requirements 14
M Tier II Automotive Paint Shop - questions questions questions IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 9
J Chrysler Gage Standard - Gage standard for all Tier II stamping gages Customer and Company Specific Requirements 3
G Manufacturing -> Warehouse -> Tier 1/OEM - Process flow, PFMEA, & Control Plan FMEA and Control Plans 9
P Two tier objectives - ISO 14001 Objectives and Targets ISO 14001:2015 Specific Discussions 10
R Approved Vendor (Supplier) if Customer Pays Sub-tier Shipping Company ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 9
Q Supplier PPAPs - Self Certified - First tier supplier to Ford APQP and PPAP 1
D Are FIR's performed per AS9102, either at Tier 2 or from Tier 3's? AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 2
D TS 16949 and Control Plans - Need Tier II/III follow AIAG Annex A Format? IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 27
W Eligibility of Tier 2 supplier of forged parts to get TS 16949:2002 certificate IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 13
B Can I use Multiple Sub-Tier Suppliers for the Same Part Number APQP and PPAP 2
M What are the Ford Tier 1 Requirements Customer and Company Specific Requirements 3
Q QS9000 Tier 2 for 12 Years - Transitioning to ISO9001 - Where do I start? ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 25
S PPAP for my tier 3 suppliers - Sub-Supplier Process Changes APQP and PPAP 16
B TS 16949 CSR for GM Tier 2 Machining Sources Customer and Company Specific Requirements 2
V Ford 2nd Tier info - Ford is asking us for a list of all of our suppliers Customer and Company Specific Requirements 29
A Definition Tier one, Tier two and Tier three suppliers? What do these mean? Definitions, Acronyms, Abbreviations and Interpretations Listed Alphabetically 3
T Second Tier Laboratory Requirements for TS 16949 IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 3
D Supplier QMS Development - Tier 3 integrated circuit supplier to automotive Supplier Quality Assurance and other Supplier Issues 4
L Are we a tier 1 or a tier 2 supplier? Supplier Quality Assurance and other Supplier Issues 3
A How is APQP flowed down to sub-tier suppliers in the automotive industry? APQP and PPAP 5
T Design responsible? Tier 2 / 3 manufacturer of steel products - TS 16949 Design and Development of Products and Processes 6
R Who is the "customer" in TS 16949? Are we are tier 2 or 3 of an OEM? IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 3
F Who pays for DVP? Subcontractors or Tier 1 Supplier? APQP and PPAP 1
K PPAP basic help needed - Tier 1 automotive supplier for an electrical wiring harness APQP and PPAP 4

Similar threads

Top Bottom