SBS - The Best Value in QMS software

Time Allocation for Internal Audits

L

LesPiles

#1
Hello everyone,

In some time, we will conduct internal audits. We are a small company (I would rather say a medium one), 130 people, ISO 9001 Certified and engaged in the design and production in addition to other services.

Internal auditors are borrowed from other departments. I am asked (by auditors as well as their section leaders) how much time is required for this exercise (including preparation, audit report).

We do only the "minimum" in terms of audits, so our auditors have little experience. To my knowledge, there is no standard for the allocation of time required.


As a rule of thumb, two (2) nonconsecutive half-days of preparation and two (2) nonconsecutive half-days are needed. What do you think ?


Thank you to all in advance.
 
Elsmar Forum Sponsor
#2
Have you based this on experience of doing audits previously? Or is this simply a guess? What are the scope and criteria for the audits? Are they the same each time? (I hope not) You may have to simply estimate something based on sitting down and doing it, but 2 half days to prepare for an internal audit? To do what? 8 hours of preparation? A CB auditor gets less to do a full system audit! You may need some time, but if the auditors are coached and given effective planning tools, I can't see it taking 8 hours!
 

normzone

Trusted Information Resource
#3
Been down this road for various reasons - I collected data in a company half your size and reached the following conclusions.

Rudimentary training in conducting process audits: 4 hours, maybe less or more based on the person's experience. Assuming that you try to draft the sharpest tools available.

Preparing for an audit: Dependent on the complexity of the process to be audited. Can range from an hour to half a day.

Conducting the audit: As above. Half an hour to half a day.

Documenting the audit: Depends on the person's analysis and writing capabilities. I usually co-author these documents acting as the voice of reason and editor. Again, process being audited determines complexity and size of audit report. 1 - 4 hours.

What was the question? Oh, yeah. I think your estimate is good. You'll find it will be less for some persons / processes, and more for others. Some people can sum up things neatly, others could take the information I've shared in this post and consume 11 pages to convey it.

So I'd say a day to two days for training and to completely document their first audit, then after that it gets simpler, say a few hours total per audit. Unless, you have people who I have described above.

My advice is try to avoid using the latter persons for auditors.
 
Last edited:

John Broomfield

Staff member
Super Moderator
#4
Hello everyone,

In some time, we will conduct internal audits. We are a small company (I would rather say a medium one), 130 people, ISO 9001 Certified and engaged in the design and production in addition to other services.

Internal auditors are borrowed from other departments. I am asked (by auditors as well as their section leaders) how much time is required for this exercise (including preparation, audit report).

We do only the "minimum" in terms of audits, so our auditors have little experience. To my knowledge, there is no standard for the allocation of time required.

As a rule of thumb, two (2) nonconsecutive half-days of preparation and two (2) nonconsecutive half-days are needed. What do you think ?


Thank you to all in advance.
LesPiles,

First you need top management's objectives for your audit programme as recommended by ISO 19011.

Then you need to select people for auditor training who behave as recommended by ISO 19011.

Make sure at least one auditor is competent to conduct system audits to verify conformity of your management system to ISO 9001.

Make sure your audit team is trained and coached so it comprises between 6 to 8 competent auditors able to fulfill the objectives of the audit programme and of each audit.

Schedule internal audits so each auditor does at least one every quarter to build and maintain their competence.

Pair your strongest auditors with the others until they are competent or are replaced. After a while they may be able to audit alone.

Audit each process according to the results of your risk assessment. You may find the vital few processes need auditing 4 times more frequently than the stable less risky processes.

A process audit rarely takes more than four hours including prep and reporting time. Avoid wasting auditor time on doing the work of operators and supervisors in monitoring their processes per 8.2.3.

The training takes as long as it takes in the classroom and on supervised or coached audits until the auditor is competent or replaced.

The time it takes to develop a competent auditor largely depends on who you select in the first place.

John
 
#5
I'm not sure that it's entirely the appropriate measurement to question "how long" an audit takes. Rather, if we have a well defined audit scope and criteria, we should focus on WHEN the audit takes place. An internal audit programme which is based on some arbitrary calendar of doing the whole system of processes each year or similar will default to how long does it take, because it just has to fulfil a simple requirement - "just do it".

If an audit programme is based on status and importance, the auditors have to prosecute the audit until such a conclusion has been reached about the ability and effectiveness of the management process(es) to meet their stated goals - it matters not in that case, how long the audit takes (in relative terms)
 

John Broomfield

Staff member
Super Moderator
#6
LesPiles,

Time is a resource that is much easier to obtain when everyone can see it is necessary to fulfill top management's objectives for your internal audit programme.

John
 
Thread starter Similar threads Forum Replies Date
C Resource allocation problems in Software DFMEA FMEA and Control Plans 4
A Definition Functional and Allocation Baselines - MIL-STD-973 Definitions Definitions, Acronyms, Abbreviations and Interpretations Listed Alphabetically 2
J Allocation of Resources - Spreadsheet to look at current labor hours vs. planned ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 4
C First Round of QMS Internal Audits - Ethical Dilemma Internal Auditing 7
T How to conduct combined internal audits (9001 and 13485) Internal Auditing 1
Q Easy CARs for Internal Audit ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 14
A Internal audit plan and processes for ISO 14001:2015 ISO 14001:2015 Specific Discussions 3
C API Q1 internal audit report Internal Auditing 3
AllTheThings ISO-17025 accredited TEST lab performing internal calibrations (Yes: Here is how) ISO 17025 related Discussions 6
M Must a company be 17025 accredited to perform internal calibrations? ISO 17025 related Discussions 7
P Filled in F48/F49 for internal audit ISO 17025:2017 Internal Auditing 1
A ISO 9001 Internal Audits - No production right now due to furloughs Internal Auditing 5
J Internal audit random sampling methodology Internal Auditing 2
G Organizing internal audit program for an Integrated QHSE Management System Internal Auditing 13
W How do you phrase your internal audit questions? Internal Auditing 3
M IATF - Internal Audit 3 year span Internal Auditing 4
Thee Bouyyy Internal NCR - API Q1 5.4.2b - API 16C Clause 4.1.3 Internal Auditing 9
Q ISO 9001-2015 Internal audit finding Internal Auditing 12
lanley liao How to understand this words that the planning of internal audit shall take into consideration the results of previous audits? Oil and Gas Industry Standards and Regulations 10
A Add MDSAP to Internal Audit Schedule Medical Device Related Regulations 0
J IATF 16949 Internal Audit question - Auditor's responsibility Internal Auditing 6
M ISO13485:2016, MDSAP and Internal Audits ISO 13485:2016 - Medical Device Quality Management Systems 8
S IATF 16949 Internal Audit Example IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 14
R AS9100D internal audit checklist or ISO 9001 2015 to AS9100 D AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 2
S Would this be a second site for the purposes of internal and third party audits? General Auditing Discussions 4
V Internal Auditor Competency KPI IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 15
J ISMS - Internal Audits Internal Auditing 5
M ISO 13485:2016 internal audit checklist Medical Device and FDA Regulations and Standards News 8
S ISO 9001:2015 Internal Auditing Internal Auditing 8
A Internal Audit Questions ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 11
L Documented Information in Internal Audits Process (9.2) ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 4
salaheddine96 Internal audit planning Internal Auditing 2
D CB and customer audits considered as internal audits? General Auditing Discussions 9
M ISO 9001 Major Nonconformance Internal Audit Schedule/COVID-19 ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 18
E MDR internal audit Internal Auditing 1
B Internal Auditor Competency - Product Auditors Internal Auditing 9
U Internal Auditor not trained but done Audit for some process Nonconformance and Corrective Action 5
F Internal transfer of work from one line to another? Qualification and Validation (including 21 CFR Part 11) 3
B Looking for 10 Internal Audit Online Training Participants ISO 17025 related Discussions 2
R Monitor production quality - Internal KPIs Manufacturing and Related Processes 5
R IATF 16949 - Outsourcing of internal audits Internal Auditing 11
M Major vs. Minor for Internal Audits? Internal Auditing 10
T Internal Nonconformance procedure thoughts (AS9100) AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 6
M Tips on preparing for IATF 16949 Internal Lead Auditor exam Manufacturing and Related Processes 1
C Internal Audits in a tiny Dx Company Internal Auditing 33
H AS9100 Checklist for Internal Audit needed AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 2
A What are the pros and cons of using an audit software for internal auditing? General Auditing Discussions 7
F Internal Audit before Pre-Assessment ISO 17025 related Discussions 2
Q Internal audit plan template Internal Auditing 12
E PEMS Hazards - IEC 60601 Clause 14.6 - Internal data use - Pressure sensor IEC 60601 - Medical Electrical Equipment Safety Standards Series 3

Similar threads

Top Bottom