To PPAP or Not? Comparing two machines (one old and one new)

J

jmarcus - 2008

A customer of ours is asking us to re-PPAP a new machine after accepting it 5 months ago. I know we would need to create a PPAP for a brand new machine, but this is a carbon copy of a machine they already approved years ago. If it was just a PPAP I wouldn't be asking this, but they are asking us to mark bins for capability studies, asking for different packaging, all to see if this line if better then the first?

Is there anything I could suggest to get them to show it's exactly the same.

As a side note they have been excepting parts run on this line for over 5 months.

Thanks
 
F

Frank T.

Re: To PPAP or Not?

Welcome to the cove. :bigwave:

IMO. If the customer is requesting a re-PAPP, regardless of past acception of parts. Then, it needs to be done. It would fall under a customer requirement. Not to mention any time you change a process, no matter if the machine is a carbon copy, a verification that the machine is capable of mfg. these parts needs to be accomplished. All machine don't run and operate the same.

This is just my :2cents: .
 
K

Kevin H

Re: To PPAP or Not?

I've usually been in the supplier's shoes - often the raw material supplier, stainless steel sheet, iron powders, etc. We've usually tried to keep PPAP's very general to cover more than 1 annealing line, etc.

Having said that, I've never seen 2 identical machines in identical physical condition produce statistically identical parts - there's always been some identifiable difference. Different wear, different ages, different maintenance just tend to increase those differences. So as a customer if you introduce a new machine or line (even an "identical" one) I'd want to know and would want to re-PPAP.
 

Ajit Basrur

Leader
Admin
Is there anything I could suggest to get them to show it's exactly the same.

Sorry, you can not. The machines may be identical outside but they are different internally.

Thus, the operating parameters of one machine will vary with the other as the performance is different and thus a PPAP is mandatory.

Often, I have come across that we put these requirements if the Customers ask us to do. I insist in our company that we should proactively do this to increase the confidence in our system. If we do validation or PPAP, its more better for us and we get better yields etc.
 

Helmut Jilling

Auditor / Consultant
A customer of ours is asking us to re-PPAP a new machine after accepting it 5 months ago. I know we would need to create a PPAP for a brand new machine, but this is a carbon copy of a machine they already approved years ago. If it was just a PPAP I wouldn't be asking this, but they are asking us to mark bins for capability studies, asking for different packaging, all to see if this line if better then the first?

Is there anything I could suggest to get them to show it's exactly the same.

As a side note they have been excepting parts run on this line for over 5 months.

Thanks


The other replies have given good advice. I would add, your point is partially correct, they are similar, but not identical.

In many PPAP situations, similar is good enough. For example, if a supplier will make parts on 5 machines, they don't necessarily PPAP all 5 independently. The parts are not always identified as to which machine produced them.

If however, the part, the application or the customer is very critical, then this might be required.

The way I see it, you have two choices. You can take your energy to fight it, or, it might be smarter to take the original PPAP, recycle as many records as would be applicable and appropriate to this one, and just add the new statistical data. This would either be a new PPAP, or an addendum to the original one, whichever the customer prefers.
 
J

John Nabors - 2009

jmarcus-

I've been out of automotive for a few years (thank God!!), but back in the day we were required to re-PPAP a machine's processes if we even just moved it within the same facility. Not only are no two machines ever truly identical, even the same machine may exhibit performance changes just from the trauma of being picked up and moved.

Regrds -John
 

Ajit Basrur

Leader
Admin
Quite similar to the dissimilarities between all human beings :)

All men are similar but no 2 persons are identical. :rolleyes:
 
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