To tell or not to tell.

Wes Bucey

Quite Involved in Discussions
#11
I wholeheartedly agree. To be clear, when I mentioned follow through I meant do something, such as reporting it and/or leaving the organization.

To come here every few months, making "soft" accusations, asking for advice, not doing anything and repeating the process ad nauseum makes us think the OP is not serious.
I don't think the OP is "not serious;" rather, I think he is simply indecisive and afraid.

Deming was forthright in declaring the removal of FEAR was one of the most important actions top management could take. Sadly, combined with the current economic conditions, fear is more prevalent than ever. Indeed, rather than instilling fear in subordinates as a control technique, top management, themselves, have become infected with fear and act rashly, lest they are perceived to be "ineffectual."

I recall a friend relating his weekend warrior exercise in the desert with his National Guard outfit. A regular Army colonel had been berating the Guard officers on how poorly the troops had performed on the exercises to date and told them, "Tomorrow, we are having a camouflage exercise. The men follow YOUR orders. You need to shape up!"

The point was to camouflage men and equipment from detection by air. By noon, the Guard officers were satisfied all was ready. As the afternoon wore on, the shadows lengthened until sharp profiles of tanks and guns were clearly etched in the long shadows.

The Guard major saw the shadows and, in a panic for fear of the wrath of the regular Army colonel, screamed an order to his men, "Cover those shadows with sand!" My friend reports it took the major nearly five minutes of unrestrained hooting and laughing from the troops before he realized how ridiculous his order had been.

Maybe what some of us need to do when the bosses issue ridiculous orders is to counter fear with humor to the extent we say, "Wow! That's a good joke, but you can't really expect to get away with that, can you?"
 
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Jen Kirley

Quality and Auditing Expert
Staff member
Admin
#12
I wholeheartedly agree. To be clear, when I mentioned follow through I meant do something, such as reporting it and/or leaving the organization.

To come here every few months, making "soft" accusations, asking for advice, not doing anything and repeating the process ad nauseum makes us think the OP is not serious.
Of course we have very little objective evidence of the situation and what the OP is, in fact doing or not doing. I can very well remember the feeling of futility when I was trying to make progress and did not. There was nothing I could do about the situation - and to get another job I eventually moved out of state.
 
E

Eloy Gomez

#13
Ethics, in the end you will feel better. While reading your post it sounded like you work at my company.

I once told the MR that I would not lie for him, but then againg you can lead the horse to the water but you cannot make him drink. As long as you know you did the right thing that is what matters.
 
V

Vic de Beer

#15
I guess that the saying : don't volunteer information, unless when asked... and: report all non conformities do not come into play here:notme:
 

Randy

Super Moderator
#16
I don't know what type of organization you worked for, but the OP in this thread works for a repair station. Playing with the integrity of aerospace parts put lives at risk. As I said before, this is serious stuff.
Absolutely!

As a Q professional in aerospace I had to be willing to, and I did perform maintenance test flights on aircraft that I signed off on (thousands of flights and hours). The ultimtae test for an aerospace Q professional should be just that (or in this case the people at the company in question) Would you be willing to fly with the stuff your dumping into the system?

I was an I did, as did my co-workers!:yes:

If your answer and their answer is no, then shame on you and everyone else and y'all deserve more that what may come your way.

You cannot Bu!lshit around with safety

If I seem too harsh, grow up! Poor repair part quality caused me to wad up on the end of a couple runways and killed some of my friends.
 

Wes Bucey

Quite Involved in Discussions
#17
Absolutely!

As a Q professional in aerospace I had to be willing to, and I did perform maintenance test flights on aircraft that I signed off on (thousands of flights and hours). The ultimtae test for an aerospace Q professional should be just that (or in this case the people at the company in question) Would you be willing to fly with the stuff your dumping into the system?

I was an I did, as did my co-workers!:yes:

If your answer and their answer is no, then shame on you and everyone else and y'all deserve more that what may come your way.

You cannot Bu!lshit around with safety

If I seem too harsh, grow up! Poor repair part quality caused me to wad up on the end of a couple runways and killed some of my friends.
Don't leap to conclusions not in evidence.
We have no facts whether the products or installations were faulty and would thus endanger life, health, safety.

The OP uses a vague statement "I don't think we told the truth . . ."

Truth about what, exactly? Think???

In our thread about Ethics, I wrote (note especially the phrases emphasized in bold red)
Background:
From time to time, Cove members write posts which disclose facts or "hypotheticals" about observing false records being entered or about being asked by management to change or alter Quality records to "make the company look good."

Sometimes the posts express real bewilderment with a request, "What should I do?"

More often, though, the poster knows exactly that the situation is wrong, maybe even criminally wrong, and is expressing his frustration that he is forced into making a decision whether to follow his conscience or to endanger the economic well-being of his family by refusing to do anything wrong or even (in an extreme case) "blowing the whistle" on the wrongdoers, in which case he may even be fired in retaliation.

The current situation:
In the USA, there are some so-called "whistle blower" laws which are supposed to protect employees from retaliation when they inform authorities about criminal activities. The real truth, though, is that it often takes a long, expensive court battle to get reinstated or to get compensation. In the meantime, the employee who has been fired is left hanging in the wind and often loses friends and spends all savings just trying to find another job. There are sad tales of folks who suffered horribly after blowing the whistle (consider Karen Silkwood.)

Sometimes, these would-be whistleblowers engage in criminal activity themselves, trying to get evidence to protect themselves, by stealing records or making illegal recordings. They do this out of ignorance of the laws and of their true rights. Sometimes, the very act of stealing or copying records may make them inadmissable in court, negating the whole attempt.

What should you do if you find yourself between a rock and a hard place on a question having to do with ethics or criminality?

Some courses of action:
  1. Confirm your suspicion that you witnessed wrongdoing "on purpose" versus "from ignorance." A guy who realizes he transposed his digits the first time he wrote an inspection dimension and erases the error is not a criminal - just a fool. A manager who creates a forged SPC chart to meet a 1.33 Cpk requirement is both a fool and a criminal.
  2. If the wrongdoing is from ignorance, your primary responsibility is to inform someone in authority within the organization so they can investigate and take some sort of corrective or preventive action.
  3. If the wrongdoing is from criminal intent, you ought to determine if it is limited to one individual or is systemic.
  4. If individual, see item (2), unless it is the very top officer; if systemic, or the top officer, see a qualified employment lawyer first, before gathering documents or secret recordings. The primary purpose of the lawyer is to protect you and your family, then to expose the criminal activity to proper authorities, perhaps even to cooperate or collaborate with authorities. Under no circumstances should you attempt to do any cooperation or collaboration with authorities without advice and agreement from your attorney every step of the way.
Summary:
  1. Above all, remember that following a formal legal course of action will result in a more permanent resolution to the problem than a suicidal rush to "expose the evildoers."
  2. Not every instance of wrongdoing is criminal or even purposeful, some are just the result of ignorance or stupidity.
  3. If there is any lingering question whether the activities you witness or are being asked to perform are criminal, the input from the lawyer will help resolve that question.
  4. Under no circumstances should you try to steal or copy confidential documents to bolster your case. (Google "Mark Whitacre") If, after your conversation with the attorney, referral to legal authorities takes place, they can issue search warrants and go in and seize ALL necessary documents and assure they will be admitted as evidence.
  5. Prepare for the LONG wait. It may be years, if ever, before you can get compensation for wrongful termination.
  6. Disregard tales of anyone who says, "When it happened to me, I just told them . . . stop it, or else . . . and they straightened right out." That's pure fantasy. Reread stories about Rich Taus, Karen Silkwood, Ed Bricker, and others for a dose of reality.
  7. Regardless of the fact there is a government route for whistle blowing on a corporation, do NOT take that route without the advice of a lawyer who will protect YOUR interests.
  8. Above all, choose your battles. Consider yourself. Consider your own REAL motive for doing this.
    Are you afraid life, health, safety of people are affected by the wrongdoing? Do it!
    Are you just hoping to get a "reward" (10% of moneys recovered from wrongdoing corporations?) Maybe do it
    Are you just getting even with the SOB who promoted his brother-in-law instead of you? Think twice.
    Did the guy humiliate you in public and now you are going to get "even?" Don't waste your time.
Often, the activity, while reprehensible, is not criminal and your best recourse is just to find a new job.
Without facts (perhaps to the extent of one or more of us witnessing with educated and non-biased eyes), this entire thread is an exercise in what not to do. I find it difficult, based on the OP having cried wolf in past threads, to get all emotional about the threat of airplanes falling out of the sky. If the OP isn't sure enough of his allegations to go talk to an attorney with some specifics about the supposed wrongdoing, then why should we listen to Chicken Little about whether the sky is falling?
 

Sidney Vianna

Post Responsibly
Staff member
Admin
#18
Truth about what, exactly? Think????
You said you had read his previous posts. This is a previous post from the same person:
Wes mention the peanut plant causing people to be sick,but what about a Repair Station environment when you falsify maintenance records on an aircraft and released back to service?
The thing that I don't understand is that this company has a strong ethics program and yet management are playing with people safety.
In the case of the 10 % reward it will go to pay the attorneys fees.
I think in cases like this,the Fed's should make this disclosures mandatory.
I don't think the OP is waffling about approaching the FEDS about the quality of the food in the cafeteria.
 

Wes Bucey

Quite Involved in Discussions
#19
You said you had read his previous posts. This is a previous post from the same person:
I don't think the OP is waffling about approaching the FEDS about the quality of the food in the cafeteria.
Sure, but what's happened in the intervening eight months since he wrote that? Something smells here, Sidney. I stand by my statement - no excitement or emotion without more facts. We are Quality folk here - we don't accept "anecdotal evidence!"
 

Sidney Vianna

Post Responsibly
Staff member
Admin
#20
I stand by my statement - no excitement or emotion without more facts.
I am neither excited, emotional nor grandstanding about this. But when a whistle blower wannabe, working for a repair station, keeps coming back with soft allegations of corporate wrongdoings, which have the potential to impact flight safety, it should raise some general interest.

Just because you don't know what happened within the organization, since he posted serious allegations, it does not mean they are not still happening and the issue is no longer serious.
 
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