Tracing TS 16949 Requirements to AIAG Reference Manual during an Audit

Douglas E. Purdy

Quite Involved in Discussions
#1
A question that I have been pondering for a while is how does one performing a TS Audit trace to an AIAG requirement? I recently went through a periodic audit by the registrar and a finding was documented to PPAP 3.1 as follows:

Requirement: The organization shall notify the customer of any planned changes to the design, process, or site.

Failure: The customer is not always being notified when changes to the process are made.


Now I do not have an issue with the finding, but how would I trace the finding from TS? Would it only be via the Customer Specific Requirements to get me to the PPAP reference manual? If so, then shouldn't that CSR have been stated by the auditor?

Just Wondering,
Doug
 
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D

Duke Okes

#2
Re: Tracing TS Requirements to AIAG Reference Manual during an Audit

TS 7.3.6.3 says "organization shall conform to a product and manufacturing process approval procedure recognized by the customer"

So if the customer required a PPAP, then the manual is the procedure. You could also trace it through the CSR, but it wouldn't add anything unless they used the CSR to validate that PPAP was required.
 

Douglas E. Purdy

Quite Involved in Discussions
#3
Re: Tracing TS Requirements to AIAG Reference Manual during an Audit

TS 7.3.6.3 says "organization shall conform to a product and manufacturing process approval procedure recognized by the customer"

So if the customer required a PPAP, then the manual is the procedure. You could also trace it through the CSR, but it wouldn't add anything unless they used the CSR to validate that PPAP was required.
I looked at 7.3.6.3, but that did not get me to the PPAP reference manual directly. Can an auditor assume the approval procedure recognized by the customer?

I guess the point that I am pondering is that in order to make a finding against an AIAG Reference Manual, an auditor would need to identify the customer requirement that leads to the AIAG Reference Manual - right? Since TS does not link itself to the reference manuals, then a TS auditor would have to link the AIAG Reference Manual requirements via the Customer Specific Requirements. Is this the proper way of identifying the nonconformance to an AIAG Reference Manual?

Still Wondering,
Doug
 
R

RickT

#4
The auditor is not cerrect in tying the finding to the PPAP manual since it is an AIAG document and not a TS document.

The finding should have been tied to Clause 0.5 Scope,which states "This Technical Specification coupled with applicable customer specific requirements defines the fundamental quality system requirements for those subscribing to this document." That is also back-ed up clause 7.3.6.3.

I am assuming your customers are members of AIAG. hence require the use of the core tool manuals.

Each AIAG member refers in its customer specific requirements to the use of these manuals and to PPAP ion partucular.

To be correct, the suditor should have made that connection in the finding.
 

Douglas E. Purdy

Quite Involved in Discussions
#5
The auditor is not cerrect in tying the finding to the PPAP manual since it is an AIAG document and not a TS document.

The finding should have been tied to Clause 0.5 Scope,which states "This Technical Specification coupled with applicable customer specific requirements defines the fundamental quality system requirements for those subscribing to this document." That is also back-ed up clause 7.3.6.3.

I am assuming your customers are members of AIAG. hence require the use of the core tool manuals.

Each AIAG member refers in its customer specific requirements to the use of these manuals and to PPAP ion partucular.

To be correct, the suditor should have made that connection in the finding.
I do not quite buy that the finding should be tied to clause 0.5 in that it is only part of the introductuction to the Technical Specification. I do think that it supports the basis that for a TS Audit to identify a requirement from a reference manual would have to be through the customer-specfic requirement.

Thanks,
Doug
 

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#6
I see a sort of nested finding, with the intitial reference to 7.3.6.3 as Duke suggests, and then a further reference to the CSR that establishes the specific 7.3.6.3 requirement. I don't think reference to either requirement exclusively is enough.
 
C

cheahga

#7
Re: Tracing TS Requirements to AIAG Reference Manual during an Audit

I looked at 7.3.6.3, but that did not get me to the PPAP reference manual directly. Can an auditor assume the approval procedure recognized by the customer?

I guess the point that I am pondering is that in order to make a finding against an AIAG Reference Manual, an auditor would need to identify the customer requirement that leads to the AIAG Reference Manual - right? Since TS does not link itself to the reference manuals, then a TS auditor would have to link the AIAG Reference Manual requirements via the Customer Specific Requirements. Is this the proper way of identifying the nonconformance to an AIAG Reference Manual?

Still Wondering,
Doug
Hi Doug,

I agreed with your statement on the basis "auditor can only referenced AIAG reference manual if the requirement is stated in your CSR and not other"...

If AIAG document can be used as the requirement to ISO/ TS certification, then AIAG should be the authorisation body for TS instead of IATF ...:bonk: or they are both the same....:biglaugh: That's why auditor is confusing.......:topic:

:cfingers:
 
R

RickT

#8
Hi Doug and Cheagha,

I have no problem with your concern about tying to 0.5 except your comment that it is "only" part of the introduction. It in fact is the Goal of the TS, hence describes its intent and obective. Organizations and auditors surely should keep the 4 goals of 0.5 in mind when implementing and auditing a system that claims to meet the requirments of the Technical Specification.
(Sorry to appear on my soap-box, but i feel too many people overlook the basic premise of the TS).

IATF in the International Body that administers ISO/TS 16949 and AIAG represents the North American membership in the IATF.

Hope this helps.
RickT
 

antoine.dias

Quite Involved in Discussions
#9
IMO the auditor should have mentioned 7.1.4 change control ( including both note 1 and 2.
Quote :
The organization shall have a process to control and react to changes that impact product realization. The effects of any change, including those changes caused by any supplier, shall be assessed, and verification and validation activities shall be defined, to ensure compliance with customer requirements. Changes shall be validated before implementation.
For proprietary designs, impact on form, fit and function (including performance and/or durability) shall be reviewed with the customer so that all effects can be properly evaluated.
When required by the customer, additional verification/identification requirements, such as those required for new product introduction, shall be met.
NOTE 1 Any product realization change affecting customer requirements requires notification to, and agreement from, the customer.
NOTE 2 The above requirement applies to product and manufacturing process changes.

Quote on "notes":paragraphs marked “NOTE” are for guidance in understanding or clarifying the associated requirement.Unquote

Best regards,

Antoine
 

Douglas E. Purdy

Quite Involved in Discussions
#10
Hi Doug and Cheagha,

I have no problem with your concern about tying to 0.5 except your comment that it is "only" part of the introduction. It in fact is the Goal of the TS, hence describes its intent and obective. Organizations and auditors surely should keep the 4 goals of 0.5 in mind when implementing and auditing a system that claims to meet the requirments of the Technical Specification.
(Sorry to appear on my soap-box, but i feel too many people overlook the basic premise of the TS).

IATF in the International Body that administers ISO/TS 16949 and AIAG represents the North American membership in the IATF.

Hope this helps.
RickT
I do not have an issue with understanding the goal, but how can you write a nonconformance to the goal?

"This Technical Specification, coupled with applicable customer-specific requirements, defines the fundamental quality management system requirements for those subscribing to this document."?

When I stated that 0.5 is only part of the introduction I was trying to clarify that it is not a requirement. I believe the responder (don't have listing of responses below this window to reference - like usual) who identified the 0.5 clause was suggesting that the finding would be written to 0.5 along with 7.3.6.3. I simply do not agree that is the way to idenify the nonconformance to TS. I believe the goal indicates that you would have to write the nonconformance against the Customer-Specific Requirement.

Thanks,
Doug
 
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