'Training' as a Prevention Control in a Process FMEA?

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#2
Not according to the SAE guidelines on PFMEA's (SAE J1739 Rev. JUN2000)

It's always been my 'take' that the PFMEA 'assumes' that the person is fully qualified etc. Therefore the focus of the task is on the process. I have seen all kinds of 'goofy' controls, like internal audits etc. but it's not in the 'spirit' of looking into the process for sources of error and control.
 

try2makeit

Quite Involved in Discussions
#3
I guess it all depends what processes/functions you can apply this too. Some Customers won't be satisfied with operator training only as a preventive control and require something else, since even with training mistakes can be made.

We have some Processes in our PFEMA that are under Preventive Controls marked as Operator training. Naturally we have the training record as proof if a Auditor should ask for them specifically. But the processess that are marked as operator training can only be prevented this way.

Don't know if this helps :bigwave:
 

try2makeit

Quite Involved in Discussions
#5
I'm sure Dr. Deming is spinning in his grave..........:lol:
I am sure he is :biglaugh: But the said Processes / functions that I am implying to, do require a Person that has been trained to know what to look for. Training records/matrixes exist and it is documented in the Shop order as to what is acceptable and not.

If it is such a no no to have operator training under preventive controls, then how come none of the external auditors that have been thru here has questioned it ? :confused:
 
#6
Nice point!

We don't have enough space to cover why any auditor wouldn't make an issue of this, but a few that come to mind include not being sufficiently knowledgeable of this aspect**, not knowing what criteria to write an nc against.....We have many Covers who have to audit this type of thing, they will, I'm sure offer their suggestions, too

** This is why the IATF have been keen to ensure 'core tools' training for auditors. Frankly, just training on PFMEA etc doesn't make an auditor any better at evaluating this kind of situation, given the time constraints they have to audit within.

The difficulty I have is that from a purely management standpoint, you shouldn't have people not competent to work on the process. That's a qms failure, not a process failure, as the PFMEA is applied.
 

CarolX

Super Moderator
Super Moderator
#7
Can 'training' be classed as a prevention control in a Process FMEA ?
I just finished a couple of FMEAs for a non-automotive customer, and I used training as part of my prevention.

I guess my thinking was - why do we train - to teach so mistakes are not made - and in my book - that is prevention.
 
#8
So, at the heart of this is the philosophy of the reasons for poor quality and peoples' influence over it.

In my 35+ years experience of industry, many mistakes have been made by people, however, it wasn't because of poor training!

Maybe lack of 'awareness', lack of experience, a process was flawed, got changed without anyone being told, wasn't maintained well enough, the raw material spec. changed etc. etc. etc. None of these were because someone wasn't 'trained'.

Once the issue of mistakes rears its ugly head, then 'mistake proofing' of the process should be used.

One example keeps coming to mind of a way to describe the difference between training and 'awareness', knowledge etc. If you pardon my euphemism, "We all want our kids to have sex education, not sex training......":eek:
 
M

M Greenaway

#9
I am with you Andy on this, I didnt like the use of training as a prevention control but couldnt think why, just didnt like the look of it.

Could we say that PFMEA is looking at the process hardware (and probably software) that prevents people doing the wrong thing - taking the people element or people skill level out of the equation for a moment ??
 

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#10
Not according to the SAE guidelines on PFMEA's (SAE J1739 Rev. JUN2000)
I don't see anything in my copy of J1739 that proscribes use of training as a prevention control. If I missed something, can you tell me where to find the source of your information?

It's always been my 'take' that the PFMEA 'assumes' that the person is fully qualified etc. Therefore the focus of the task is on the process. I have seen all kinds of 'goofy' controls, like internal audits etc. but it's not in the 'spirit' of looking into the process for sources of error and control.
You'll have to take my word for it when I say that I doubt that many people have reviewed more supplier PFMEAs than I have, and I too have seen many "unusual" entries, but "looking into the process for sources of error" should never overlook the potential for human error, and lack of training is a common source of error. You have to remember that a PFMEA is a process, not a document. The document is a record of what took place during the process, and it's a good idea to review operator and inspector training during the PFMEA process, especially when dealing with new products, new machines, and new gaging (which is almost always the case in automotive work).

So, at the heart of this is the philosophy of the reasons for poor quality and peoples' influence over it.

In my 35+ years experience of industry, many mistakes have been made by people, however, it wasn't because of poor training!

Maybe lack of 'awareness', lack of experience, a process was flawed, got changed without anyone being told, wasn't maintained well enough, the raw material spec. changed etc. etc. etc. None of these were because someone wasn't 'trained'.
Lack of awareness and experience aren't training issues?:confused:


Once the issue of mistakes rears its ugly head, then 'mistake proofing' of the process should be used.
I think that the main purpose of the PFMEA process is to develop prevention controls. If we're just going to wait for mistakes to happen before doing anything, what's the use if doing PFMEA at all?

One example keeps coming to mind of a way to describe the difference between training and 'awareness', knowledge etc. If you pardon my euphemism, "We all want our kids to have sex education, not sex training......":eek:
The analogy doesn't work, I'm afraid. Do you believe, for example, that when we train people how to use new machines, fixtures and gages that the training should be confined to classroom, and when it's over we should just turn them loose on the process?

In answer to the OP, I think there's absolutely nothing wrong with citing training as a prevention control, so long as it makes sense in the context of the operation under consideration. Efficacious training is a fundamental way of preventing bad things from happening.
 
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