Training Forms - Do training forms need to be numbered?

Gman2

Involved - Posts
#1
I am putting together some ISO-9001 overview forms (training forms).
They are very simple and straight forward with areas for Name, Machine/Area, Date, Title (ISO 9001 overview) and topic breakdows.
Then an area at the bottom for the employees and trainer to sign and date.

My question is does this need to be numbered and controled?

If so does EVERY (element/clause) training form HAVE to be?
I am thinking those do because they will be specific.
And I believe the machine training forms with listed compentencies will be numbered.
But this is just an ISO-9001 overview training form.
Just trying to get an idea on what has to be controlled and what does not.

Thanks

G.
 
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ccochran

Southern Gentleman
#2
Gman2,

Good morning. The acid test on document control is this question: are the training documents required by your management system? (Reference the 1st sentence of 4.2.3, "Documents required by the quality management system shall be controlled.") Since you've chosen to make training documents part of your system, you've already answered this question. Yes, training documents are required. Thus, they must be controlled.

How you chose to control them is largely up to you, within certain bounds. Nowhere does ISO 9001:2000 say anything about numbering of documents. You simply have to make the documents "readily identifiable." This could be accomplished through a title, as opposed to a document number.

Whenever you're not sure if something should be controlled, ask yourself if the documents in question are required by the management system. The way you answer this will tell you if control is necessary. If document control starts seeming too unwieldy, take a hard look at your document control procedure to see if it lean and streamlined enough. It's possible that your document control procedure stipulates some controls that are neither needed internally nor required by ISO 9001:2000. More thoughts here: http://www.qualitydigest.com/june02/html/doccontrol.html.

Good luck,
Craig

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Craig Cochran
Center for International Standards & Quality
Georgia Institute of Technology
[email protected]
 
#3
Go back to the standard: "Documents required by the quality managment system shall be controlled." Now, are these training forms required by your QMS (in other words, if you threw them out, would your QMS suffeer)? If they are required, then they must be controlled. So the next question is what type of contol? That's the a)-g) stuff. Does any of those indicate "numbering"? No, it requires them to be "readily identifiable" (e). The name, or title of the form should be good enough.

However, if your procedure says they will be numbered, then you either have to number them, or change the procedure.

We tend to make doc control much harder than it needs to be.
 
#4
ccochran said:
Gman2,

The acid test on document control is this question: are the training documents required by your management system? (Reference the 1st sentence of 4.2.3, "Documents required by the quality management system shall be controlled.")
Good advice. I always ask myself two questions regarding the need to control "forms":

Does the system specify its use?

Does it, when completed, become the record of the activity?

In our facility, we use e-mail to communicate training activity to the Training Coordinator because she enters it into our training database which then becomes the record of the activity.
 

Gman2

Involved - Posts
#5
Okay thats good but, you know the next issue that is going to come up is how do you keep track of revisions when we are not using any numbers and are only referencing the title?
What is the training for changes? How do we know we are using the current form? I think that is what they are going to ask.

G.
 
#6
Gman2 said:
Okay thats good but, you know the next issue that is going to come up is how do you keep track of revisions when we are not using any numbers and are only referencing the title?
What is the training for changes? How do we know we are using the current form? I think that is what they are going to ask.

G.
When I mentioned numbering, I was refering to a form number, not a revision number. Two entirely different things. The Standard gives us some help here as well, however:

4.2.3 c) "to ensure that changes and the current revision status of documents are identified"

So, how do you know if it is the right form? Does it need a revision number? In some cases, perhaps. In some cases, perhaps not. Perhaps the standard can be fulfilled through training on the form. Perhaps it is from having the form in an electronic format and you fill it out, then print it (if paper copies are required). The electronic master can be controlled, and the revision would be the "date modified" on the electronic properties.

Once again, it is important for the control to be useful to you and your organization. Keep it simple, and keep it useful.
 

howste

Thaumaturge
Super Moderator
#7
ccochran said:
...The acid test on document control is this question: are the training documents required by your management system? (Reference the 1st sentence of 4.2.3, "Documents required by the quality management system shall be controlled.") Since you've chosen to make training documents part of your system, you've already answered this question. Yes, training documents are required. Thus, they must be controlled...
At the risk of sounding nit-picky, I have a different opinion on what documents are required by the quality management system. Just because you create a document does not mean your quality system requires it. I could easily create a training record on a cocktail napkin that would meet my needs. However, if the form is needed to control the content of the record, then the form requires control.

4.2.1d specifies what documents are required:
The quality management system documentation shall include
d) documents needed by the organization to ensure the effective planning, operation and control of its processes,
If the document is used to help control the process, it's required.
 

Marc

Hunkered Down for the Duration
Staff member
Admin
#8
Gman2 said:
My question is does this need to be numbered?
None of my smaller clients have numbered their forms. In fact, all documents are identified either by the disk file name or the title of the form. No numbers, no muss, no fuss. Obviously, this is not very workable in large companies.

How you identify a document or form is entirely up to you.
 
#9
howste said:
At the risk of sounding nit-picky, I have a different opinion on what documents are required by the quality management system. Just because you create a document does not mean your quality system requires it. I could easily create a training record on a cocktail napkin that would meet my needs. However, if the form is needed to control the content of the record, then the form requires control.

4.2.1d specifies what documents are required:
If the document is used to help control the process, it's required.
:agree:
 
#10
Marc said:
None of my smaller clients have numbered their forms. In fact, all documents are identified either by the disk file name or the title of the form. No numbers, no muss, no fuss. Obviously, this is not very workable in large companies.
:agree: I like this bare bones approach that Marc takes. However, from the LARGE company approach, I have used this:
  • You have a document titled QAP 6.2.2, Competence, Awareness, and Training in your procedures manual.
  • Said document requires two forms as part of the procedure: Training Attendance Record and Employee Training Record.
  • Number them Form QAP 6.2.2-01 and Form QAP 6.2.2-02 with a rev letter or number.
  • Refer to them by # only in the procedure and put them in a collected forms in the back of your QAP Manual.
  • If they require update, simply update the form and rev letter, no need to change procedure.
  • Easy reference from the form back to the procedure that required it.
 
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