Training Needed for Registration - Is Formal ISO Training Required?

[fahadhmmad]

I think the training is needed but it differ from one job to another if employees have clear image of quality and committed it will be quite enough

 

[AndyN]

Re: Training needed for registration

This is how we're setup now: we have two people in our quality department. One sets up all the documentation, records, procedures and is new to ISO without any formal training (me). The other has been trained in Auditing and tends to handle most of our customers audits to us.

Training from what I have researched will require me to fly somewhere, stay over, plus the training is costly also.

As a training provider, I'm bound to tell you that training can be costly (in some cases). We can't help the travel (some classes are run in the Chicagoland area) and it can actually cost much more to not be trained by someone who's experienced!!

It's just like everything in life. Sometimes you can get lucky and get good stuff for free, sometimes the more you pay the better the result and sometimes you have to pay, even though you think you saved a lot - you just paid in hassle or extra work or by plain doing things ineffectively.

So, if you want to do it right and save money too, find out about the courses which will give you the training you need to become competent.......

Andy

 

[Randy]

Andy opened the door..........

1st let me state up front here that I am a professional trainer (in the last month I have delivered over 100 class hours alone), for a well recognized training provider, a company called BSi Management Systems, and I am not going to point you in our direction only becuse there are many competitive companies represented here in the Cove and they are all very good.

OK..................

Training does not have to be costly and good training for low cost is available. The issue is relevance and competence....Is the training you intend or that has been or recommended to you relevant to what you need to know and do and will it aid you in becoming competent? I continuously see people in courses that have no business or need to be in them, like Lead Auditor courses. The courses are not relevant to what they need to know or what they need to do.

Effective and relevant training for you might be accomplished by taking a simple online thing for $100 or so and a couple of hours (we have those as do many others). An 8 hour course in documentation or system understanding might suit your needs ($300-$500 depending on many variables).

There may be more than one solution to your problem, but in direct answer to your question "Is it required that individuals at a company have formal training to become ISO registered?"

No!

 

[rharold]

Re: Training needed for registration

What is the Management Representative required to do? I haven't come across that in the standard.

 

[Claes Gefvenberg]

Re: Training needed for registration

What is the Management Representative required to do? I haven't come across that in the standard.

Maybe I misunderstand you but: You have it in clause 5.5.2. Not very detailed to be sure, but it's there. It does not tell you how to do it, of course...

/Claes

 

[AndyN]

Re: Training needed for registration

What is the Management Representative required to do? I haven't come across that in the standard.

Typically, they're the 'owner' of the whole system and its compliance to the requirements of a specification like ISO 9001, ISO/TS 16949 etc. So, they're normally required to be pretty conversant with that spec. If we're talking ISO 9001, (and other similar requirements) the MR 'owns' the Management Review requirement and facilitates that review for the management team. Furthermore, the MR normally is the interface with the external bodies such as customer auditors and registrars. The standard speaks to some (minimal) requirements for the role, but practically there can be much more to the function.

In many organizations, the MR is the process owner for the internal audits and corrective action systems. If that's not enought, they can have responsibility for customer satisfaction metrics and for identifying improvements........

On the other hand, I've also witnessed MR's who don't have a clue about the above and have people who do the above for them; they simply have the title to fool the auditors into thinking that management is 'committed'.:mg:

Andy

 

[Coury Ferguson]

Re: Training needed for registration

Typically, they're the 'owner' of the whole system and its compliance to the requirements of a specification like ISO 9001, ISO/TS 16949 etc. So, they're normally required to be pretty conversant with that spec. If we're talking ISO 9001, (and other similar requirements) the MR 'owns' the Management Review requirement and facilitates that review for the management team. Furthermore, the MR normally is the interface with the external bodies such as customer auditors and registrars. The standard speaks to some (minimal) requirements for the role, but practically there can be much more to the function.

Yes that is the normal function of the MR. To be the "Guide" and focal point between the Company and the External sources.

In many organizations, the MR is the process owner for the internal audits and corrective action systems. If that's not enought, they can have responsibility for customer satisfaction metrics and for identifying improvements........

I don't know if I could agree with this, Andy. In my opinion, the MR's main function is to be the focal point, not the process owner, unless otherwise specified.

On the other hand, I've also witnessed MR's who don't have a clue about the above and have people who do the above for them; they simply have the title to fool the auditors into thinking that management is 'committed'.:mg:

Andy

How true.

 

[AndyN]

Re: Training needed for registration

I don't know if I could agree with this, Andy. In my opinion, the MR's main function is to be the focal point, not the process owner, unless otherwise specified.

Coury, I'm not suggesting that's how it should be, but how I have found it working with organizations over the years. Actually, come to think about it, if internal audits were done my way (and one day...........when I rule the world......... ) it would make sense for the MR to be the process owner for intenal audits too, since the audits give info on the degree of compliance - for which the MR is responsible (among other things)

Andy

 

[Ajit Basrur]

Hi,

External trainings are definitely costly. In fact, I have prepared a 4 days exhaustive training module for ISO 13485 and I impart trainings in batches so as to cover all employees.

In doing internal trainings, I cover very apt examples so that people can correlate the std requirements with practise and helps achieve the goal faster.

Sorry Training Consultants, no ill - feelings, pl

 

[Coury Ferguson]

Re: Training needed for registration

Coury, I'm not suggesting that's how it should be, but how I have found it working with organizations over the years. Actually, come to think about it, if internal audits were done my way (and one day...........when I rule the world......... ) it would make sense for the MR to be the process owner for intenal audits too, since the audits give info on the degree of compliance - for which the MR is responsible (among other things)

Andy

Andy, if it works within an organization, then by all means implement.

Let us look at the actual requirement:

Top management shall appoint a member of management who, irrespective of other responsibilities, shall have the responsibility and authority that include a) ensuring that processes needed for the quality management system are established, implemented and maintained, b) reporting to top management on the performance of the quality management systems and any need for improvement, and c) ensuring the promotion of awareness of customer requirements throughout the organization.

Note The responsibility of a management representative can include liaison with the external parties on matters relating to the quality management system

There is nothing that says that the MR has to be the QA Manager, just that the duties of the MR will be irrespective of other duties have some type of authority, to ensure that the QMS is established, implemented and maintained. The ability to report to top management on the performance (management review), and employee awareness.

Which brings us to the OP:

Is it required that individuals at a company have formal training to become ISO registered?

Is training required to be Registered? Not specifically required to be a MR, but following the common sense rule, the MR should have knowledge on the requirements of ISO9001 and the Company's policy's and procedures, and someone with the authority to bring issues up during the Management Review meetings.

I guess the other requirements of training (Para 6.2.2) would apply.