Training our Internal Auditors - How can I tell what I 'may be' missing?

I

Ingeniero1

#1
I am just about done with training our Internal Auditors and when all done, we will have conducted three limited, ‘practice’ audits in which we all participated. After that, we will do our first complete Internal Audit.

I have divided the departments and operations among the four auditors, and each will do a complete audit of his/her areas. We will be auditing for the following:

A. How well does what we actually do match what the procedures we have just written say we do?
(As part of this, we will also be able to identify if a procedure, and not the activity per se, is at fault and the write-up is to be corrected.)

B. Are the ISO 9001:2000 elements applicable to any specific area properly met or satisfied?
(Here, we will also be able to identify if there are any elements of the Standard that we have not addressed at all.)

My concern is that after finishing the procedures, which I have written based on my interviews with managers, supervisors, and operators, I may have missed critical details. For example, in our Corrective Action procedure, I had forgotten to include a timing requirement for when a corrective action is to be completed. Another example is the lack of listing of some of the forms that we use within the applicable procedures.

I am presently seeking approval to have an independent consultant do a gap audit after our first internal audit. After that gap audit, I plan to do another internal audit, although perhaps not complete, and then we will be ready for the Registrar.

How else can I find out if I have dotted all the i’s and crossed all the t’s?

Thanks!

Alex
 
Elsmar Forum Sponsor

The Taz!

Quite Involved in Discussions
#2
Ingeniero1 said:
How else can I find out if I have dotted all the i’s and crossed all the t’s?
Thanks! Alex
Alex,

Don't look for perfection from the get-go. At some point ya gotta run with what you have, and use subsequent audits to reveal nonconformances and gaps. You have to show some thing from your audits.

I have a scheme that seems to work well for me (And my Swedish brother Claes),

1) group the nonconformances found by TS or ISO Section (4,5,6,7,8) and Paretoize the data. That will give you and indication of what major areas need shoring up.

2) Group the same data by TS or ISO sub-section and paretoize that. That will give you and indication of what processes need shoring up or procedure updates.

3) Group the individual noncon's by individual requirement. That will give you the gaps.

Hope this is of help. I programmed an Access database to do the grunt work. I even issue and track the CAR's through it.
 
Last edited:

RoxaneB

Super Moderator
Super Moderator
#3
I think you're off to a great start, Alex. Audits will be the strongest factor in determining if any areas have been missed...or not fully implemented. Keep that as an option to look for, as well...don't just look for "is it done or not"...look to see how well it has be implemented. Some organizations with shiftwork, focus on a crew or two and forget the others.

Something else to keep in mind is to perhaps get the feedback of the employees. They're the biggest users of the system...do they understand the concepts of it, do they apply it, do they believe in it?
 
L

little__cee

#4
Don't forget the attachments

There are also great attachments if you click the

The March - April 2004 Post Attachments Summary List

link on the top of this page and search for the word "internal" or "audit" -- many helpful tips and questions to ask.


I loved the use of the word paretoize by the way!
 
T

Tom W

#6
The Taz! said:
Alex,

Don't look for perfection from the get-go. At some point ya gotta run with what you have, and use subsequent audits to reveal nonconformances and gaps. You have to show some thing from your audits.
Well your on fire today Taz! :agree1: This is a great point. If you try to be perfect before you implement and conduct audits you will already be set up to fail. The program will develop as you audit. For example - we are on revision G of our procedure over 5 years. The program has developed into a very comprehensive one that has help to foster a positive continuous cycle of improvements.

Things change and you want to change with them. The best way to get a good solid system for auditing is to audit. You can have the best procedure in the world but if the auditors are not experienced and confident in their abilities your system will not hold up. Experience for the auditors will make them better auditors - will make your audit system better. JMHO.
 
#7
The Taz! said:
Don't look for perfection from the get-go. At some point ya gotta run with what you have, and use subsequent audits to reveal nonconformances and gaps.
Right. I see audits mainly as a tool for collecting improvement potential.

/Claes
 
M

M Greenaway

#8
It seems to me that your internal audit program is heavily focussed on compliance to documented procedures, and appraising whether or not your documented procedures detail exactly everything you do to the nth degree.

Perhaps a more fundemental and important question is 'are our processes effective in meeting our quality objectives ?'
 
I

Ingeniero1

#9
Engineers always have been 'accused' of designing and redesigning to death before the product is released. Perhaps rightly so - but in my experience, it have always been able to save time and money. That having been said, I can honestly say that I am true practitioner of avoiding the 'paralysis through analysis' syndrome. ;)

Now that I got that off my chest... Yes, we will proceed with our internal and registration audits as scheduled. :yes: I just want to do as much work up front as possible.

M Greenaway- Bingo! :agree1:
We know that the procedures we use and the practices we follow work well for us. We also know that they can be improved, which is something we are working on. We did not, however, have the proper documentation or consistent records to establish a benchmark for comparison.

Writing the procedures will help us to continue to meet our Quality objectives including continual improvement, and to satisfy the Standard. Since the former is in 'pretty good shape' and the later is the 'unknown challenge', the former tends to become the squeaky wheel in this case.

Alex
 

Randy

Super Moderator
#10
It's nice to see that your IA process is designed to look for and address failure. (Not really, I'm just being myself)

You'd be better served focusing on the issue of how to identify things that could be adressed through preventive action (before they break or become a non conformance in need of correction). Lets call this a value added focus.

Improvement and growth come through proactive and not reactive measures...so is value whether real or percieved.
 
Thread starter Similar threads Forum Replies Date
W Is formal training required for Internal Auditors? Internal Auditing 7
S Training Requirements for ISO 9001 Internal Auditors Internal Auditing 6
E Training Our Internal Auditors on the Core Tools Training - Internal, External, Online and Distance Learning 10
Howard Atkins Are we Training Internal Auditors Correctly Internal Auditing 22
J The 5 Core Tools Training for Internal Auditors IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 16
I Can MR train Internal Auditors & any Training required for such a 'Trainer'? Training - Internal, External, Online and Distance Learning 8
B Internal Audit Training Material to Train Internal Auditors for ISO9001:2000 Internal Auditing 28
J Core Tools Training Evidence for Internal Auditors Internal Auditing 16
W AIR5493, AIR5359, AAQG Training requirements for AS9100 internal auditors AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 3
howste AS9100 internal auditors - Accredited training required? AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 5
B In house Internal auditor training - Need of a method of training more Auditors Training - Internal, External, Online and Distance Learning 6
S Qualifying TS2 Internal Auditors & Refresher Training Internal Auditing 3
K Internal Auditor Training - Who is Allowed to Train Internal Auditors? Internal Auditing 28
S Training Internal Auditors on TS16949:2000 Internal Auditing 5
M Fun Quality Stuff - Creating a training plan for new internal auditors Training - Internal, External, Online and Distance Learning 28
T Internal Auditor training - Qualifications needed to train internal auditors? Internal Auditing 13
A Internal Auditor Training - Who can train other internal auditors in the company? Internal Auditing 22
U QS 9000 Audit - Trainer of internal auditors not having formal training QS-9000 - American Automotive Manufacturers Standard 6
C Internal Quality Auditors Training Requirements General Auditing Discussions 26
G Training of Internal Quality Auditors - Over all the aspects of ISO10011 Parts 1 & 2? General Auditing Discussions 3
B Looking for 10 Internal Audit Online Training Participants ISO 17025 related Discussions 2
S ISO 13485 Lead Auditor - Debate between our Quality Team and Regulatory Auditor - Internal Auditor Training ISO 13485:2016 - Medical Device Quality Management Systems 17
D ISO 9001:2015 Internal Audit Training Advice Internal Auditing 10
C Recommendations for UK-based ISO 13485 internal auditor training ISO 13485:2016 - Medical Device Quality Management Systems 1
J Your opinion on the better training org for IATF16949 Internal auditor and Lead Auditor IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 3
A Who champions your internal manufacturing training? Training - Internal, External, Online and Distance Learning 7
Q Internal Auditor Training requirements for ISO 14001:2015 ISO 14001:2015 Specific Discussions 5
E Informational I would like to get some Internal Auditor Training Internal Auditing 31
Q AS 9100D internal auditor training requirements Internal Auditing 16
E Online training for an internal auditor to AS9120B AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 2
D IATF 16949 - Internal Auditor Training/Certification Requirements Training - Internal, External, Online and Distance Learning 2
Q How to Evaluate Internal Resources for Training ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 5
Casana 2nd Party and Internal Auditor Qualifications & Training IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 13
A Suggestions of Videos for Internal QUALITY Training Training - Internal, External, Online and Distance Learning 3
B Competency of Trainer for Internal Auditor Training (IATF 16949) IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 11
C ISO 13485:2016 - Internal Auditor Training vs. Lead Auditor Training Training - Internal, External, Online and Distance Learning 4
J Dinged on Internal Audits for supervising an auditor I was training Internal Auditing 10
V Internal Auditor Training Documents and PPT Document Control Systems, Procedures, Forms and Templates 5
V Internal Auditor Training Documents and PPT Internal Auditing 3
M ISO 13485 Audit Questions - Internal Auditor Training and other Requirements ISO 13485:2016 - Medical Device Quality Management Systems 10
M Questions about AS9100 Internal Auditor Training AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 14
P Internal Auditor Training - Audit exercises Internal Auditing 5
B PFMEA, Internal Auditing, Corrective Action Training In Native Language (China) Training - Internal, External, Online and Distance Learning 1
D Training Material for Internal Auditor Requirements Training - Internal, External, Online and Distance Learning 4
U TS16949 Internal Auditor Training - Is On-line training OK? Training - Internal, External, Online and Distance Learning 1
S TS 16949:2009 Specific Internal Auditor Training Requirements Training - Internal, External, Online and Distance Learning 4
T ISO 9001 Internal Auditing Auditor Training in Amsterdam Training - Internal, External, Online and Distance Learning 1
S Does anyone have any pointers on TS 16949 Internal Auditor Training IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 4
S How to spice up the Internal Auditor Training IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 5
Q AS9100 Quiz Questions for Internal Training AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 6

Similar threads

Top Bottom