Training Process Map - An ISO9001:2000 Requirement?

C

cleverfox

#1
Process map of Training?

Hello all again. We have been through our phase 1 assessment audit of ISO9001:2000 in July 2003. Our phase 2 cert. audit is Aug. 11, 2003.

During the closing meeting the auditor mentioned that my original go at the process map with interactions was excellent. But he had a few comments (funny how they always start off with a compliment :rolleyes: ). He gave me a chart of what processes this registrar expects to see mapped out under MOP's (management oriented processes), SOP's (support...) and COP's (customer...). Under the SOP's he has listed "Training"! :eek:

I am not sure what inputs or the outputs for said process are. :frust:

Does anyone have any idea that may help me.

I also had to re-do the entire process map (the one that started out as excellent) because I had too much detail originally.

Signed,

frustrated in Michigan
 
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#2
cleverfox said:
I am not sure what inputs or the outputs for said process are. :frust:

Does anyone have any idea that may help me.
Dear Frustrated (Wow sounds just like Ann Landers)

No, really, this may be some more overzealousness of the registrar. I would ask where in the standard it mentions MOPs, CPOPs, SOPs, or even process maps. They aren't there. Given said that, mapping the is most common way to meet the process understanding requirements. The inputs to the process could be such things as training needs, personnel competencies, process requirements. Outputs could be training plans, competent personnel. The process is to identify the training (or rather compency) needs; determine the available compentencies; align the two and then determine how you will fill any gaps. An additional output would of course be records.

Why do you have to re-do anything? Was it because the auditor thought it was too complex, or perhaps there is no way you could live with it?

You have to meet the requirements of the standard. Never allow an auditor's interpretation of the standard to overrule yours. It is YOUR system, not the auditors.
 
C

cleverfox

#3
Dave,

Thanks for responding. You are right the standard does not spell out the technique for process mapping, but 4.1(a) states to identify and (b) requires that these be sequenced and their interaction known. BUt you probably know that.

The ISO website (www.iso.org/) has guidance on process mapping, so I guess even though the standard doesn't explicitely state to do it, it is implied through (get this) "interpretation" (oh, its a beautiful thing). But because the standard doesn't give clear guidance (imagine that), the registrars may set the bar for you.

You are very wise in the possible inputs and outputs that you listed, thank you.
 
#4
My experience is that auditors have specific ideas of how the standard should be implemented. If you show them that you have your own ideas and they work (you "set the bar"), they will probably be okay with that. If it appears that you haven't "set the bar", then they will default to their ideas and set if for you. The key is for you to set the bar, afterall it is your bar.
 

Marc

Hunkered Down for the Duration
Staff member
Admin
#5
cleverfox said:
He gave me a chart of what processes this registrar expects to see mapped out under MOP's (management oriented processes), SOP's (support...) and COP's (customer...). Under the SOP's he has listed "Training"!
What was on the 'chart' you were given?
 

RoxaneB

Super Moderator
Super Moderator
#6
cleverfox said:
During the closing meeting the auditor mentioned that my original go at the process map with interactions was excellent. But he had a few comments (funny how they always start off with a compliment :rolleyes: ). He gave me a chart of what processes this registrar expects to see mapped out under MOP's (management oriented processes), SOP's (support...) and COP's (customer...).
Oh wow, this sounds almost word-for-word from our Registrar!!! Don't suppose you're in the steel industry?!?! ;)

We were provided with a template for MOPs and SOPs and COPs, to be filled by us to help our External Auditors understand how our processes related to the Standard...apprently process maps just aren't enough. :)

That being said we have developed inputs/outputs for Recruitment, Retention and Development...just a fancy way to say Human Resources. But it combines training, safety and payroll...HR's three main areas of focus at our facility.

Inputs

Raw Materials
  • Identified need for human resources

Utilities - N/A

Key Paperwork
  • Requirement of current legislation (which we then go on to list)
  • Company culture and management objectives
  • Collective bargaining agreement
  • (HR/H&S) Audit and survey findings

Outputs

Finished Product
  • Positive morale
  • Low turnover
  • Skilled workforce

Process Data
  • Refer to Department Key Indicators
  • Human Resources, Health and Safety, and Payroll databases

Key Records
  • Appropriate Business Management System records including, but not limited to: Department Key Indicators, Training Records, Performance development records, Legistlated documents/reocrds, etc.

We also list work environment and resources and provide links to other HR/H&S document for recruitment process specifics, training programs, the Employee Training Records database and so on.
 
C

cleverfox

#7
RCB,

Whew, I was beginning to wonder if we were the only ones with required COPs, SOPs and MOPs. You have given me some good thoughts concerning HR and training. I am not sure why our registrar is so insistent about Training being a process, but I decided to make it an output of HR with similiar inputs.

Marc, the requirements above were listed on a sheet that the auditor was suppose to use to help us map these out, not sure other than that. I just do what I am told...just a foot soldier in someone elses army. :biglaugh:

I have attached the process map of what I currently believe will pass, as it has already gotten somewhat of a thumbs up during the phase 1 assessment. This has the process interactions and sequenced in relation to product/production realization.

Any other thoughts are greatly appreciated.
 

Attachments

SteelMaiden

Super Moderator
Super Moderator
#9
RCBeyette said:
Oh wow, this sounds almost word-for-word from our Registrar!!! Don't suppose you're in the steel industry?!?!
So who is your registrar? Ours didn't say anything about our "process maps". I certainly did not flow chart training...we do have a procedure that spells out the process.
 

ccochran

Southern Gentleman
#10
Process sequence & interaction

Howdy,

This whole 'process sequence and interaction' thing has caused more confusion than just about anything else in ISO 9001:2000. It's confusing because the requirement is somewhat vague, and different folks interpret it in vastly different ways. When the standard says 'processes,' is it talking about the key processes that you have for doing what you do (welding, grinding, polishing, etc.) or is it talking about generic QMS processes (training, corrective action, mgt review, etc.)? I think it's talking about both.

When I give advice on this topic, I tell people to simply draw a flow diagram of what you do as a business, starting with customer requirements and ending with customer satisfaction. The flow diagram is not required, of course, but it's an easy way to achieve 'sequence and interaction.' I also say to keep the diagram to one page or less. Then I tell them to try to incorporate QMS processes. The trick is that many of these processes are not really sequential. That's okay, just put them in a cloud floating around the whole diagram or try to imply that these processes might be applied at any stage. Then I ask them to make sure they've indicated the major verification stages and informational inputs. Voila, you've just done system planning.

The 'MOPs, COPs, SOPs' advocated by this particular registrar might be a helpful construct to assist in building this diagram, but it's still up to the organization. As long as you've defined your processes (realization processes and QMS processes), along with their sequence and interact, nobody should have anything to say about it. Don't let someone highjack your system or it will gradually become unrecognizable to you.

CC

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Craig Cochran
Center for International Standards & Quality
Georgia Institute of Technology
[email protected]
 
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