Training Records - Content and System Requirements

JoCam

Trusted Information Resource
#1
Hi All,

I have recently changed sector from medical devices to electronics, and work for a company with many certifications including TS16949, AS9100, IRIS, ISO13485 and 14001.

Since taking up this new role I have been performing quality and environmental audits of all areas and functions with a view to improving the slightly messy management system, whilst addressing my additional task of implementing the OH&S standard 18001, which is progressing nicely.

Throughout the auditing, and during 18001 implementation, the subject of training quite obviously arises, which brings me nicely to my question concerning training records.

Throughout my career I have found myself responsible for training, either implementing it's system of control, performing, or both, and have always ensured (possibly unnecessarily so) that: -

a) all training is signed for by the persons giving and receiving and, b) records of, or reference to, training material is recorded.

However, at my new place of employment neither a) or b) are followed.

The lack of this information will not be acceptable for 18001, but is it acceptable for the quality certifications we hold?

Your help will be very much appreciated.
 
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qusys

Trusted Information Resource
#2
Re: Training Records

Hi All,

I have recently changed sector from medical devices to electronics, and work for a company with many certifications including TS16949, AS9100, IRIS, ISO13485 and 14001.

Since taking up this new role I have been performing quality and environmental audits of all areas and functions with a view to improving the slightly messy management system, whilst addressing my additional task of implementing the OH&S standard 18001, which is progressing nicely.

Throughout the auditing, and during 18001 implementation, the subject of training quite obviously arises, which brings me nicely to my question concerning training records.


Throughout my career I have found myself responsible for training, either implementing it's system of control, performing, or both, and have always ensured (possibly unnecessarily so) that: -

a) all training is signed for by the persons giving and receiving and, b) records of, or reference to, training material is recorded.

However, at my new place of employment neither a) or b) are followed.

The lack of this information will not be acceptable for 18001, but is it acceptable for the quality certifications we hold?

Your help will be very much appreciated.
Hi Jo,
in relation to your request, ISO TS 16949 as well as ISO 9001 does not explicitely request a) and b) of your post.Neither OHSAS 18001.
The stanrdards requires for records of instruction level, training and competence ( see 6.2.2 of ISO 9001). ISO TS requires for addtional requirments too, see 6.2.2.2 and 6.2.2.3 related to training on the job.
In my opinion what you asked in the post could be the evidences by which your organization would comply to the standard. in fact the standards ISO TS does not say anything about training material , but you could have decided to define training material as documentation to be controlled inside your mandatory document control procedure and records control procedure and so this become a requirement for you.
hope this helps:bigwave:
 
#4
Re: Training Records

Jo:

Signing may not be 'required' by any standard, but some form of record that a) training was identified as being necessary to ensure competence and b) that the result of the training is an improved competence. Materials, certificates and such like never were much good as records, IMHO, as I can attest from people being in class, but not actually 'getting it'! Their names were on sign in sheets, they have course notes etc. but couldn't really 'do the job'...
 

JoCam

Trusted Information Resource
#5
Re: Training Records

Hi Jo,
in relation to your request, ISO TS 16949 as well as ISO 9001 does not explicitely request a) and b) of your post.Neither OHSAS 18001.
:bigwave:
Hi qusys,

Although it doesn't specify in 18001 that my points a) and b) are required, in the event of an accident occurring and the victim raising a claim against the company, it would be impossoble to prove that the claimant had recieved adequate training without signatures and training material, or am I missing something?

Anyway, along similar lines, if I wanted to select an adequately trained operative to perform a task at my company, how do I know that they have a) received the training, and b) are adequately trained if I have neither a signature or the material they were trained against?

Surely the training material itself should be audited, and if it isn't referenced how do I do that? It seems to me that the mention of training in any of the standards is just filling space if this evidence is not required.
 

Stijloor

Staff member
Super Moderator
#6
Re: Training Records

Hi qusys,

Although it doesn't specify in 18001 that my points a) and b) are required, in the event of an accident occurring and the victim raising a claim against the company, it would be impossible to prove that the claimant had received adequate training without signatures and training material, or am I missing something?

Anyway, along similar lines, if I wanted to select an adequately trained operative to perform a task at my company, how do I know that they have a) received the training, and b) are adequately trained if I have neither a signature or the material they were trained against?

Surely the training material itself should be audited, and if it isn't referenced how do I do that? It seems to me that the mention of training in any of the standards is just filling space if this evidence is not required.
Training effectiveness can be assessed by observing the actual tasks that the trainee has to perform. Simulations, practical tests, drills, etc., can work very well. While written tests and exams have their use; they only measure the ability to retain knowledge, not what the trainee can DO.

Hope this helps.

Stijloor.
 
G

Geoff Withnell

#7
Re: Training Records

Training effectiveness can be assessed by observing the actual tasks that the trainee has to perform. Simulations, practical tests, drills, etc., can work very well. While written tests and exams have their use; they only measure the ability to retain knowledge, not what the trainee can DO.

Hope this helps.

Stijloor.
I have always maintained that the true measure of training effectiveness is trainee competency. That is, are there errors occuring due to lack of knowledge/skill? If not, then the training is sufficient/effective. If there are errors due to lack of knowledge and/or skill, then I don't much care what the tests, simulations, drills, etc say, the training is ineffective.

Geoff Withnell
 

qusys

Trusted Information Resource
#8
Re: Training Records

Hi qusys,

Although it doesn't specify in 18001 that my points a) and b) are required, in the event of an accident occurring and the victim raising a claim against the company, it would be impossoble to prove that the claimant had recieved adequate training without signatures and training material, or am I missing something?

Anyway, along similar lines, if I wanted to select an adequately trained operative to perform a task at my company, how do I know that they have a) received the training, and b) are adequately trained if I have neither a signature or the material they were trained against?

Surely the training material itself should be audited, and if it isn't referenced how do I do that? It seems to me that the mention of training in any of the standards is just filling space if this evidence is not required.
Hi Jo,
you are right. I had only said that the evidences that you wrote should be ok to show records, but it is how your organization has decided to be compliant. Other company could adopt another method and be compliant at the same time. In my opinion it depends upon the organization has set the process as well as related procedures and practices.
Another thing to be considered is also the effectiveness of the training as well as an eventual certification of the personnel related to the procedure that are mandatory for their own jobs. Clearly in this sense records are required too.
 
Last edited:

v9991

Trusted Information Resource
#9
Re: Training Records

There are many ways of achieving compliance to requirements;

but
compliance is not only adequacy of system but also effectiveness of implementation;
in above, case, how else would you prove, effectiveness of implementation.

since we also agree that effectiveness depends of 'implementation' and 'follow-up/monitoring';
How else do we drive/measure effectiveness without appropriate system-design.
1) w/o having mechanism to trace&track the schedule of trainings(sign off from both trainee & trainer + ref to trg.material etc.,)
2) in fact, in some places, evaluation questionnaire (both written & viva) are also recorded/referred to establishes the effectiveness of training received by trainee.
 

RoxaneB

Change Agent and Data Storyteller
Super Moderator
#10
Re: Training Records

JoCam said:
I have recently changed sector from medical devices to electronics, and work for a company with many certifications including TS16949, AS9100, IRIS, ISO13485 and 14001.

...

The lack of this information will not be acceptable for 18001, but is it acceptable for the quality certifications we hold?
How has your organization demonstrated competency thus far? Perhaps it is not an issue or so large an issue that it needs to be a priority at this point.

JoCam said:
Although it doesn't specify in 18001 that my points a) and b) are required, in the event of an accident occurring and the victim raising a claim against the company, it would be impossoble to prove that the claimant had recieved adequate training without signatures and training material, or am I missing something?
There are some organizations where the union takes the stance that no members will sign any documents regarding training. While irksome - in my opinion - the organization can take the initiative to record who was there, who conducted the training, materials used, etc. As has already been mentioned, the inclusion of certificates, tickets, etc. to perform certain skills pertaining to their job, is also evidence to the person's "training".

JoCam said:
Anyway, along similar lines, if I wanted to select an adequately trained operative to perform a task at my company, how do I know that they have a) received the training, and b) are adequately trained if I have neither a signature or the material they were trained against?
Assess against the document and if the document is being adhered to, all is good. If there is no document, look for consistency between personnel. Also look at nonconformances. Are there any nonconformances that can be traced back to that individual or even the crew?

My own experienced showed that one crew had a higher % of customer complaints traced back to them than the other 3 crews. Assessments of their adherence to the documented procedures showed that they were not complying with the processes. Actions were taken.

JoCam said:
Surely the training material itself should be audited, and if it isn't referenced how do I do that? It seems to me that the mention of training in any of the standards is just filling space if this evidence is not required.
Naturally the training material should be reviewed...as should the trainer's ability to train. That's all part of the overall process.

Don't get me wrong...if I can get a signature from someone saying that they've been trained, that's a great start in the whole "competency" aspect of a management system. But we also need to look at how the person performs the task, what they were trained on, how they were trained, etc.

It's not a simple process by any stretch of the imagination, but a thorough examination of its effectiveness can pay off in the long run!
 
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