Training Records - Proof of "training" per ISO 9001 section 6.2.2 (b)

Q

qualeety

#1
had an interesting discussion with the auditor...

Background Info:

This company has about 30 different work instructions for different tasks. Each job position does different set of tasks. Also, all new employees go through the orientation training which include "introduction to manual, sop and work instructions" but nothing specific

Dilemma"

The auditor wants to see a matrix of job position and correpsponding work instruction as a proof of "training" per section 6.2.2 (b)

My point:

Having the matrix does not verify the training has occured. and section 6.2.2(b) is covered under orientation training. If a person is competent, he/she does not require training. Training is required when one's work affects product quality.

Comments?
 
Elsmar Forum Sponsor

Coury Ferguson

Moderator here to help
Staff member
Super Moderator
#2
Re: "iso 9001 training records"

My point:

Having the matrix does not verify the training has occured. and section 6.2.2(b) is covered under orientation training. If a person is competent, he/she does not require training. Training is required when one's work affects product quality.

Comments?

But, just because they have been trained, it doesn't mean they are competent.

I don't agree with the assertion that:
qualeety said:
If a person is competent, he/she does not require training.
Training is an ongoing process. Almost a never-ending loop. How is the competency measured?

In my opinion, the auditor has a valid point.
 

CarolX

Super Moderator
Super Moderator
#3
Re: "iso 9001 training records"

The auditor wants to see a matrix of job position and correpsponding work instruction as a proof of "training" per section 6.2.2 (b)
I think what is important is - what is the question/request by the auditor. The auditor is looking for "proof" of training - also known as a "record".

You state that all employees go through training - how is this documented? A matrix is just one way to document that training has been accomplished.
 

Helmut Jilling

Auditor / Consultant
#4
Re: "iso 9001 training records"

had an interesting discussion with the auditor...

Background Info:

This company has about 30 different work instructions for different tasks. Each job position does different set of tasks. Also, all new employees go through the orientation training which include "introduction to manual, sop and work instructions" but nothing specific

Dilemma"

The auditor wants to see a matrix of job position and correpsponding work instruction as a proof of "training" per section 6.2.2 (b)

My point:

Having the matrix does not verify the training has occured. and section 6.2.2(b) is covered under orientation training. If a person is competent, he/she does not require training. Training is required when one's work affects product quality.

Comments?

Both viewpoints have some merit, but neither position is adequate. You are right. The standard requires appropriate competency. Training is only required where that objective is not met. The required records are of compency, not just training.

What it sounds like you are missing is a clear list or description of the required skills for each position (in adequate detail). This is then used to determine the competency of all personnel. If all you have are work instructions, you may not have met this step.

That may be why the auditor suggested a matrix, which is one of several common methods used. However, it is not the only method, and an auditor cannot mandate a particular approach.

Also, if his matrix is about records, not skills, it still does not address this step.
 

Coury Ferguson

Moderator here to help
Staff member
Super Moderator
#5
Re: "iso 9001 training records"

I think what is important is - what is the question/request by the auditor. The auditor is looking for "proof" of training - also known as a "record".

You state that all employees go through training - how is this documented? A matrix is just one way to document that training has been accomplished.

CarolX is right.

Why don't you post your matrix and maybe we can provide more insight?
 

Coury Ferguson

Moderator here to help
Staff member
Super Moderator
#6
Re: "iso 9001 training records"

Both viewpoints have some merit, but neither position is adequate. You are right. The standard requires appropriate competency. Training is only required where that objective is not met. The required records are of compency, not just training.
Maybe I am a little confused on your statement. "Training is only required where that objective is not met." :confused:

What it sounds like you are missing is a clear list or description of the required skills for each position (in adequate detail). This is then used to determine the competency of all personnel. If all you have are work instructions, you may not have met this step.
That is a possible cause of the concern of the Auditor.


That may be why the auditor suggested a matrix, which is one of several common methods used. However, it is not the only method, and an auditor cannot mandate a particular approach.
I am agreement with this. The auditor cannot mandate a specific document.
 
Q

qualeety

#7
Re: "iso 9001 training records"

CarolX is right.

Why don't you post your matrix and maybe we can provide more insight?
the compnay does not have one and it doesn't need one...that is the point...the auditor wants to see the matrix...(ps. not gonna happen in my life time unless the auditor can clearly quote from ISO 9001 standard)

to respond to other concerns raised.

auditor agreed that the company has covered education, skills and experience (section 6.2.1) but he raised the conern that the company is lacking in "training" aspect.

In this company there is no specific training required to do one's job. A newly hired person should be competent to do his/her assigned duties. The general training is given during the orientation training and is more than adequate for a new employee to function. There is no specific training based on the working instructions. The question being asked by the auditor is "how does employee know what he has to do". The company reply is "we have written work instructions for his/her reference and if he/she is not capable of doing the tasks, he/she would not have been hired" and his/her compentency is being measured by employee performance evaluation. The company position is not to "train" each employees. (eg. go through individual work instructions)

objective evidence provided to the auditor:

orientation training records and employee performance evaluation signed off new employee & supervisor. (note: emoplyee performance evaluation is signed off twice..at the start of the employeement and at the end of probation then done annually)
job descriptions including accountability, duties/responsiblities, and skills/knowledge/experince required

so the question is....does the company need to micro "training" and need a training matrix?
 

RoxaneB

Change Agent and Data Storyteller
Super Moderator
#8
Re: "iso 9001 training records"

I believe hjilling is on to something by suggesting that the matrix will detail what the training is to done on.

Scenario - New employee starts.

Question - Do you train on all documents, including those that have nothing to do with his/her job function? The OP has said that the documents are task/job specific.

Resolution - No. It's not very effective if you train someone on Equipment A if s/he'll be using Equipment B. A matrix will show what documents a person needs to be trained on. So the training requirement of "...manual, SOPs and WIs" is valid with an addition of "as outlined on the training requirements matrix".

A Training Record - complete with dates, topics, sign-offs - is evidence of training being conducted.

Competency assessments are a different matter, but may be established depending on the style of training employed (e.g., tests, practical exams, etc.). Again, records required.

And if you are a believer in cross-functional training, set the matrix up with a code so that primary training requirements are clearly distinguishable from secondaries. You can even colour code it to show the status of training - required, required/completed, required/past due, suggested/recommended, etc. I think we've talked about this idea elsewhere however.
 

Helmut Jilling

Auditor / Consultant
#9
Re: "iso 9001 training records"

Maybe I am a little confused on your statement. "Training is only required where that objective is not met." :confused:

Training is not the requirement. Competency is the requirement. If your company hires me for ISO, you won't need to train me in ISO. (Hopefully) I am already competent in ISO. However, there may be other areas and skills where you will have to provide training. However, your records need to show that you have determined my competency in ISO, even though you did not provide training.

Training, learniing, OJT, reading...whatever methods you want to employ to achieve competency is valid, as long as it achieves competency.

Reords of training may be required, but they don't demonstrate competency. That has to be determined, and records must be maintained.
 

RoxaneB

Change Agent and Data Storyteller
Super Moderator
#10
Training is not the requirement. Competency is the requirement. If your company hires me for ISO, you won't need to train me in ISO. (Hopefully) I am already competent in ISO. However, there may be other areas and skills where you will have to provide training. However, your records need to show that you have determined my competency in ISO, even though you did not provide training.

Training, learniing, OJT, reading...whatever methods you want to employ to achieve competency is valid, as long as it achieves competency.

Reords of training may be required, but they don't demonstrate competency. That has to be determined, and records must be maintained.
This is where a training matrix outlining the training requirements comes in handy - even for small companies.

Training on ISO is too vague a statement. What kind of ISO training? If you're hired to help maintain their ISO programme, yes, hopefully you are familiar with the standard.

Internally, however, by Training on ISO, they may mean their own ISO system - doc control, audit programme, management review, etc. And that you will need training on to help you learn their system set-up.

That's why I suggested the matrix be developed to show which documents are applicable to a person when they start. To say that an individual needs to be trained on documentation leaves the door open to interpretation or worse, incomplete training. What happens if the person responsible for the training leaves and some one new comes in? How do they know what to training people on? Or do they trainin on everything because that's what has always happened?
 
Thread starter Similar threads Forum Replies Date
M Do employee training records need to be controlled documents? AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 4
T Training Records - assembly line staff ISO 13485:2016 - Medical Device Quality Management Systems 20
D Do employee training records need to be centralized? IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 10
I Date of Quality Management System - Training Records ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 19
I Training records and "grandfather" clauses ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 5
J Dr Training Records - Training doctors to use a PMA approved medical device Other US Medical Device Regulations 2
I ISO 9001:2015 - On the Job Training and Records Training - Internal, External, Online and Distance Learning 4
I Training records and levels - When does training NOT need a record? ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 13
M AS9100D Competence and Training Records - X-Ray AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 2
J Changing of our New Hire Orientation Training Records Training - Internal, External, Online and Distance Learning 12
D Training Records - People who are not directly involved in processing product ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 31
J Destroyed Training Records Records and Data - Quality, Legal and Other Evidence 8
C Incremental revisions to Quality Manual, and Training Records Document Control Systems, Procedures, Forms and Templates 2
R Scanned Training Records Quality Manager and Management Related Issues 13
E Outstanding Employee Training Records Training - Internal, External, Online and Distance Learning 11
S Retention of Training Records question Training - Internal, External, Online and Distance Learning 2
B Training Records - Can R?sum?s and Certificates Be Enough? Training - Internal, External, Online and Distance Learning 7
M Retroactive Training Records Necessary? ISO 13485 ISO 13485:2016 - Medical Device Quality Management Systems 3
D Non-production personnel Training Records - ISO9001 Requirements Document Control Systems, Procedures, Forms and Templates 6
R Training Records Software Recommendations Training - Internal, External, Online and Distance Learning 3
H Is this training records signature app FDA compliant? US Food and Drug Administration (FDA) 10
J Training Records for Errors (ISO 9001) ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 8
D ISO 9001 Clause 6.2.2 - Training Records, a Job Skills Matrix and Job Descriptions ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 30
K Third Party On-Site Servicing - Training Records Requirements ISO 13485:2016 - Medical Device Quality Management Systems 6
D E-Signature Compliance Requirements for Training Records Qualification and Validation (including 21 CFR Part 11) 3
J Training Records for Review of Material Certifications AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 24
JoCam Training Records - Content and System Requirements IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 20
R Software Recommendation Needed for Training Records Training - Internal, External, Online and Distance Learning 13
M Training Records for Retired (Obsoleted) Documents ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 4
T Is it a requirement of 9001:2008 to have Management Training Records? Training - Internal, External, Online and Distance Learning 6
B Training Records for Welders Training - Internal, External, Online and Distance Learning 12
D Training Records - Requirement to keep original copy of training/assessment form? Records and Data - Quality, Legal and Other Evidence 12
I Not having Training Records for Documentation Changes - ISO 13485 Clause 4.2.3 Document Control Systems, Procedures, Forms and Templates 22
C Training Records - AS9100 Requirements Records and Data - Quality, Legal and Other Evidence 17
SteelMaiden Training Documentation Programs for Training Records Quality Assurance and Compliance Software Tools and Solutions 2
A Competency Records Management - How do you manage your training/competency records? Training - Internal, External, Online and Distance Learning 1
T Fulfilling Training Requirements - We have NO Training Records on anything ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 12
L Training Requirements Documentation and Records - Machine Shop ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 12
C Training Records & Training plan ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 3
S Training Records for Contractor's Personnel. ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 6
B Training and Competency Records Retention - UK Health Service Records and Data - Quality, Legal and Other Evidence 5
S Supplier Training Records - Where is the violation in the standard? ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 7
J Training Records - HR Functions at Corporate Office - Objective evidence of training ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 2
T Training & Induction Records - Implementing ISO 9001 ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 3
J Training Records - How detailed? ISO 13485 Requirements Training - Internal, External, Online and Distance Learning 7
K Missing Information in Training Records - Is it a Major Nonconformance? ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 23
I Electronic Training Records which show Evidence that People have been Trained Records and Data - Quality, Legal and Other Evidence 29
J Job Descriptions - Records needed as evidence of the training? ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 9
J Training Records - Confidential? Records and Data - Quality, Legal and Other Evidence 25
B Auditor demanding that we retrospectively populate training records. IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 25

Similar threads

Top Bottom