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Training Requirements for ISO 17025 Internal Auditor

A

amanbhai

#1
i never come accross a requirements regarding the special training of internal auditor. e.g. training on equipment calibration when auditor perform internal audit of calibration clause. however, our auditor gives us a nc regarding internal auditor competence?
any help is appreciated!
 
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Jerry Eldred

Forum Moderator
Super Moderator
#2
I'm not an expert on this, so maybe others can give more full information. My understanding is that there is not exact requirements. But anyone who makes decisions which effect quality need to show evidence of competence. In our lab, we have training records with certificates from various courses that show evidence that we have been trained and have skills for what ever we do that effects quality.

This is the same for an auditor. Someone must have some evidence that they have proper skills to be an auditor. There are a lot of ways to do that. There is an organization called ASQ which has among other specialties a certification called a CQA (Certified Quality Auditor). I attended ISO9001 Lead Auditor training course a number of years ago, and that is in my training record. It may also be possible that the Quality Manager could personally train the auditor there and document the training.

These are some examples of ways to help with that Non-conformance. Hopefully some others will be able to provide more information.
 

Kales Veggie

People: The Vital Few
#3
i never come accross a requirements regarding the special training of internal auditor. e.g. training on equipment calibration when auditor perform internal audit of calibration clause. however, our auditor gives us a nc regarding internal auditor competence?
any help is appreciated!
What is the wording of the N/C? What was the objective evidence, supporting the N/C?

Can you share that with us, so that we give you a better answer?
 

howste

Thaumaturge
Super Moderator
#4
i never come accross a requirements regarding the special training of internal auditor. e.g. training on equipment calibration when auditor perform internal audit of calibration clause. however, our auditor gives us a nc regarding internal auditor competence?
any help is appreciated!
Did the auditor say the auditor needed training in auditing? Or did they say the auditor needed training in calibration?

I'm with Kales - I'd like to see what the auditor wrote.
 

Hershal

Metrologist-Auditor
Staff member
Super Moderator
#5
ISO/IEC 17025 does not specify the training either for internal auditing or for calibration. However, competence is required and that will drive what specifically is necessary.
 
Q

QAGirly

#6
Hello,

I'm not new to this forum, but new to this topic (IEC17025). I'm now a new Quality Manager (4 weeks) to a cal lab who is 17025 accredited. I've come from an ISO 9001 and more recently we got our AS9001 and NADCAP certs before I left. My question is this - I have 3 certificates (1 lead auditor training, one auditor training and most recently, AS9001 training cert). Will this suffice for our audit showing I'm trained to audit to 17025? I cannot find anything specifically stating requirements.
 

Jerry Eldred

Forum Moderator
Super Moderator
#7
This is a good question, to which I'll add some further questions and partial respnse, as I am dealing with some related issues.

I think ISO17025 is a little vague on qualifications. This may perhaps be because "calibration" (my world) and testing covers such a very wide range of specialty disciplines. I think my answer would be that you need to have adequate skills to audit. That seems to answer your question without an answer. But what I mean is that when you audit, you have to have the understanding to verify that the person or process meets what ever requirement is imposed. Half of this, in my view is the auditor (quality systems) training and/or experience. The other half is (in my view) adequate understanding of the technical context.

The second half of this has been an annoyance to me for many years. I have ISO9001 Lead Auditor Training among other types of audit training, as well as military calibration training and 30+ years experience in calibration. It has long annoyed me when an auditor does not fully understand the technical side (as is too often the case).

I believe it is explicit in ISO17025 that anyone making decisions effecting the quality of the calibrations (including audits) must have adequate background that their audit decisions ensure the calibration results are valid (in this case, the results of the audit).

I would be interested in some expert opinions about this, including the quality manager as imposed in paragraph 4.1.5 and other places. What level of technical calibration expertise is required of the quality manager? or auditors? Are there other paragraphs, or other standards referenced directly or indirectly by ISO17025 that specify the technical competence of quality personnel (quality manager, auditor, etc.) in an ISO17025 accredited calibration laboratory? It seems to me that this is one of those weak spots that companies use to save money or shortcut; even though these are key roles that impact the labs quality every bit as much as the technicians performing the calibrations.
 
Q

QAGirly

#8
Thank you, Jerry.

I appreciate your input. I've been in the wire/cable harness assembly industry for 13 years and just recently took this position. I'm learning daily, so by next year, I hope to have a lot more "info and knowledge" under my belt when our re-assessment audit is due. Yes, this is a new industry for me, however ISO/IEC etc are not new by any means. I feel like every great QM, VP, CEO etc starts somewhere. This is where I'm starting after 13 years in the Quality Assurance field......
 

howste

Thaumaturge
Super Moderator
#9
My question is this - I have 3 certificates (1 lead auditor training, one auditor training and most recently, AS9001 training cert). Will this suffice for our audit showing I'm trained to audit to 17025? I cannot find anything specifically stating requirements.
Admittedly ISO 17025 is vague on auditor qualifications. Since that's the case, let's use some logic. It looks like you have training in how to audit, however I see nothing in what you posted that would indicate you have any knowledge or experience (beyond 1 month) in ISO 17025. I'd have a tough time saying that the training you've had would qualify you as an ISO 17025 auditor. I'd suggest that several audits along with an already ISO 17025 qualified auditor or training in ISO 17025 requirements/interpretation might help you to be truly competent.
 

Hershal

Metrologist-Auditor
Staff member
Super Moderator
#10
You appear to have the auditing piece covered, so the best thing you can likely do is to get specific training in ISO/IEC 17025. There are distance learning courses, and courses are also taught at NCSLI and MSC.

The requirement for internal audits in Clause 4.14 is that all the operations of the lab be audited. Clause 5.2 requires competence of personnel assigned.

This issue is also required to be looked at in management review Clause 4.15.

Also, if the lab is accredited already then get familiar with the AB's requirements, and with ILAC requirements.

Hope this helps.
 
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