Transfer of Accredited Certification - A Diary

Paul Simpson

Trusted Information Resource
#1
Dear all. I've posted a couple of comments elsewhere about my company's work with a number of different certifications covering a range of sites around the world and three standards (9k, 14k and 18k). We currently use a range of CBs and there are multiple certificates covering a number of currently seperate systems.

The project includes bringing our systems together as an integrated system applied globally and spreading the coverage of 14k and 18k to cover all locations. At the same time we are transferring certification to a single CB.

I guess this project may be of interest to fellow Covers for a number of reasons and I plan to post a 'diary' of events and invite comments.
 
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Paul Simpson

Trusted Information Resource
#2
First stage in the process was to select a single CB to cover the business. This happened before I joined but the selection process was essentially fixed so that our biggest division's CB was selected to cover all other sites. Meant that all the other sites have to transfer to this CB.

Best thing for me (as we are going through the pain you will hear about shortly) is that all the quality managers who had experience of dealing with this CB say that they're difficult. But their boss doesn't say that in public! :bonk:

The basis for the decision is that overall group costs will be reduced when our ISO 9001 certification is under 1 CB. No account taken of additional time required by my team in 'retraining' and managing the CB. Also current performance indicates that they are unlikely to meet this objective.

Win / win all round! :sarcasm:
 

Paul Simpson

Trusted Information Resource
#3
Latest moans:
  • Auditors who don't submit plans until the day before an audit - like we're waiting around for them and there isn't a business to run! :mad:
  • All auditors so far don't understand our industry - they're happy auditing support stuff but don't understand the technicalities of what we do :nope:
  • Don't understand the IAF transition process and are making us jump through hoops as if we've not been certified before
  • Lack of response to questions - some outstanding from June 2010

All in all not going well. We have a CB that promised the earth to get the contract and is delivering little. :frust:
 

John Broomfield

Staff member
Super Moderator
#4
First stage in the process was to select a single CB to cover the business. This happened before I joined but the selection process was essentially fixed so that our biggest division's CB was selected to cover all other sites. Meant that all the other sites have to transfer to this CB.

Best thing for me (as we are going through the pain you will hear about shortly) is that all the quality managers who had experience of dealing with this CB say that they're difficult. But their boss doesn't say that in public! :bonk:

The basis for the decision is that overall group costs will be reduced when our ISO 9001 certification is under 1 CB. No account taken of additional time required by my team in 'retraining' and managing the CB. Also current performance indicates that they are unlikely to meet this objective.

Win / win all round! :sarcasm:
Boris,

Please post here your company's sole-CB reselection criteria used (per 7.4.1) so we can compare the CB's performance against those criteria.

Many thanks,

John
 
T

tyker

#5
I have sympathy, Boris.
Have you fed back your experience to the CB's management and, if so, what was their response?
Does the CB have a project manager assigned to your organization?
What is your next step to overcome this problem?
 

Paul Simpson

Trusted Information Resource
#6
Boris,

Please post here your company's sole-CB reselection criteria used (per 7.4.1) so we can compare the CB's performance against those criteria.

Many thanks,

John
Now how would selection of a CB come under 7.4.1.?

FWIW the performance of the CB is largely irrelevant to the quality of the service we offer but if I'm being perfectly honest the selection criteria went something like this:
  • Can they provide certification in the industry sector scheme of one of the Group's divisions? - Answer - Yes
  • Are they the incumbent CB for this (the largest) Division? - Answer - Yes
  • Er, that's it?

I have sympathy, Boris.
Have you fed back your experience to the CB's management and, if so, what was their response?
Does the CB have a project manager assigned to your organization?
What is your next step to overcome this problem?
Sounds a little like .. I don't have a solution but I admire your problem! ;)

In answer to your questions:
  • Yes - some of the questions (going back to June 2010) are about how they go about improving the service to us ... response as you can see is limited.
  • They have assigned a project manager who has a cosy relationship with a project manager in the group organisation
  • My next step is to continue to play the 'long game' I tell everyone who will listen how awful they are as a CB and how it is costing us time and effort. I had a slot at our Group Management Review and mentioned to the top team that they weren't very good and got an assurance that we would look around if the performance continues to be p**s poor. Our Group QM was not pleased as the CB is his choice! :notme: I'll let you know how it goes!
 

John Broomfield

Staff member
Super Moderator
#8
Now how would selection of a CB come under 7.4.1.?
Boris,

Your product includes the certificate of conformity used to convince customers that your management system is effective and fulfills the other requirements of the chosen system standard.

Therefore clause 7.4.1 applies to the selection of the CB.

Besides, devising effective reselection criteria makes a lot of sense in obtaining the value you seek from your CB.

John
 

Paul Simpson

Trusted Information Resource
#9
Boris,

Your product includes the certificate of conformity used to convince customers that your management system is effective and fulfills the other requirements of the chosen system standard.

Therefore clause 7.4.1 applies to the selection of the CB.
As I mentioned before the quality of the services we provide is independent of the certification we maintain. We have a QMS because we need one - we choose to have it certified because that is our customer's expectation. All a certificate does is tick a box on the customer's prequalification questionnaire. If I chose to document the selection criteria from my previous post where would I be?

Using this same logic gets questionnaires sent to window cleaners and catering suppliers.

Besides, devising effective reselection criteria makes a lot of sense in obtaining the value you seek from your CB.

John
Now there you have a point! Apart from the internal politics mentioned earlier if we were to use the customer satisfaction metrics as the basis for reselection for our new CB then they would be out on their ear - unfortunately the internal politics (and the fact that our lead Division decides who the CB is) mean I have to play the long game. :D
 

John Broomfield

Staff member
Super Moderator
#10
Using this same logic gets questionnaires sent to window cleaners and catering suppliers.
Boris,

I doubt if your customers make decisions to do business with your company based on the cleanliness of your windows!

The confidence delivered by your management system's certification should count for more than how well catered you are.

John
 
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