TS 16949 8.5.2 Corrective Action - Auditor did not like the customer related form

J

jbGUERRA

#1
One of our distribution centers called fuming over a Minor nonconformance during a TS16949 surveillance regarding 8.5.2 Corrective action.

The auditor did not like the customer related form they were using or the format they used to record electronic files, and the corrective action documents did not meet her expectation of defining the root cause.

The quality representative at our distribution center is following the customer guides lines for reporting root cause analysis as well as, meeting our internal procedure.

Did the auditor over step her boundaries and can we dispute the Minor nonconformance and reduce it down to at least an opportunity for improvement?
 
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ralphsulser

#2
Another possibility is to combine what you customer wants with what the auditor is looking for. Maybe just add to your existing form. If you can do that it will eliminate the hassle, and satisfy each.
 
J

jbGUERRA

#3
8.5.2 corrective action

are you saying we should change our procedures and documents to meet the mood of the auditor eventhough, we meet the requirements of the element with documentation and zero rejections from our customer concerning our corrective action submissions along with changes to our PFMEA's and control plans adding error proofing/poke-yoke methods to address root cause issues?

You lost me!
 
R

ralphsulser

#4
No, I am not saying you should change every related document.
You initially stated it was the form that was an issue with the auditor.
At least that's what I understood as a form only NC
 

Howard Atkins

Forum Administrator
Staff member
Admin
#5
jbGUERRA said:
One of our distribution centers called fuming over a Minor nonconformance during a TS16949 surveillance regarding 8.5.2 Corrective action.

The auditor did not like the customer related form they were using or the format they used to record electronic files, and the corrective action documents did not meet her expectation of defining the root cause.

The quality representative at our distribution center is following the customer guides lines for reporting root cause analysis as well as, meeting our internal procedure.

Did the auditor over step her boundaries and can we dispute the Minor nonconformance and reduce it down to at least an opportunity for improvement?

ISO/TS 16949 said:
8.5.2.1 Problem solving
The organization shall have a defined process for problem solving leading to root cause identification and elimination.
If a customer-prescribed problem-solving format exists, the organization shall use the prescribed format.
I cannot see how there can be a NC for using a customer form
But just because they used the internal procedures that does not mean that everything is OK, maybe your procedure does not meet the requirements of the standard and this is what the NC means

jbGUERRA said:
or the format they used to record electronic files,
This seems to be a separate issue and is not covered by customer format
 

bpritts

Involved - Posts
#6
If I stretch, I can picture a situation where this could happen, and be appropriate. IF (A) the customer's format does not "effectively" determine root cause and a systemic corrective action plan; and (B) you have no other means to do so, then a CAR is appropriate. The issue in (A) may very well be a subjective call.

A possible solution is to use your internal CAR format in these cases (you must have one to handle customers who don't have a form?),
for those customers whose CAR's don't fully diagnose root cause. I would, of course, still send the customer their format.

I have the opposite problem... one of my client's big customers uses a CAR form that's so complex, none of us can effectively use it. So we use an 8D form internally, then generate their format separately.

Regards,
Brad
 

Cari Spears

Super Moderator
Staff member
Super Moderator
#7
jbGUERRA said:
The auditor did not like the customer related form they were using or the format they used to record electronic files, and the corrective action documents did not meet her expectation of defining the root cause.

The quality representative at our distribution center is following the customer guides lines for reporting root cause analysis as well as, meeting our internal procedure.
Please forgive me - it's early and I'm only halfway through with my coffee - but when you say "customer related form" do you mean it is the document the customer gave them to use? And, what is the "format they used to record electronic files"? And, which corrective action documents did not meet her expectation of defining root cause: a customer supplied document or their own internal document?
 
K

Kevin H

#8
I'm with Cari on this one. Your description of the problem does not adequately convey enough detail to me to allow a good comment on the issues. From your description, I suspect part of the problem that you're using customer specified formats that the auditor does not like. It would help to attach copies of the forms for mutiple analysis/review by the cove members.
 
R

Randy Stewart

#9
Reporting and identifying Root Cause are two totally different items. There is no NC in "Reporting" root cause in the customer format, however, if the process for "Identifying" root cause is not a logical process or does not tie up loose ends, then your auditor may have noticed something.

As was stated in a previous post, if the people interviewed did not have answers on how root cause was identified then you leave yourself open for NC's. To often you find companys that will adopt a process or methodology (because their customer uses it) that they really don't understand.

I have not seen the write up so I'm going off the info given. Yes, there are auditors out there that will issue NC's because they don't like or agree with how you are doing things, they don't seem to last too long. Look at the processes you mention, evaluate the interviews that the auditor conducted and look through auditor glasses and see if you can detect the same issue.
 
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Helmut Jilling

Auditor / Consultant
#10
jbGUERRA said:
One of our distribution centers called fuming over a Minor nonconformance during a TS16949 surveillance regarding 8.5.2 Corrective action.

The auditor did not like the customer related form they were using or the format they used to record electronic files, and the corrective action documents did not meet her expectation of defining the root cause.

The quality representative at our distribution center is following the customer guides lines for reporting root cause analysis as well as, meeting our internal procedure.

Did the auditor over step her boundaries and can we dispute the Minor nonconformance and reduce it down to at least an opportunity for improvement?

1. I agree, I don't see how there can be a NC for using a customer form, unless it was used incorrectly.

2. How can a distribution center be certified to TS-16949? A DC does not meet the applicability requirements for a "Manufacturing site." Generally, they must be registered to ISO 9001. I believe IAOB does not recognize it. Any thoughts, Sidney?
 
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