TS 16949 and Control Plans - Need Tier II/III follow AIAG Annex A Format?

D

dbzman

#1
We are a tier II or III supplier to some automotive suppliers. During a recent audit the auditor wrote us a non conforming for not having the Control Plan in the format found in Annex A in the back of the TS manual. Does this have to be the format? The customer does not require the AIAG format nor do they state that it has to be the format of the Annex.
Under the title ANNEX A is has (normative). Does this mean that it is the normal format but not the mandatory one? The standard points to the annex by say (See annex a). Is this saying that it is a requirement or that it is just a suggestion?

Help!!!


:mg:
 
Elsmar Forum Sponsor
W

world quality

#2
DBZMAN,

As long as your customer agrees and that the control plan meets the following requirements, (as stated SHALL) then that is a call that your quality manager or director should question with the auditor.
 

Attachments

Stijloor

Staff member
Super Moderator
#3
We are a tier II or III supplier to some automotive suppliers. During a recent audit the auditor wrote us a non conforming for not having the Control Plan in the format found in Annex A in the back of the TS manual. Does this have to be the format? The customer does not require the AIAG format nor do they state that it has to be the format of the Annex.
Under the title ANNEX A is has (normative). Does this mean that it is the normal format but not the mandatory one? The standard points to the annex by say (See annex a). Is this saying that it is a requirement or that it is just a suggestion?

Help!!!:mg:
I assume that you are ISO/TS 16949:2002 certified, is that correct?

Annex A in ISO/TS says "normative." In Standards lingo that means mandatory requirements for the control plan. Not necessarily a particular format. Although most automotive suppliers use the AIAG format.

Just make sure that your control plans contain as a minimum the contents spelled out in Annex A. Section 6 in the APQP manual gives you guidelines, not requirements for preparing control plans.

Hope this helps.

Stijloor.
 
D

Dvor Nick

#4
From auditor's point of view If you are TS2 sertified you have to follow 7.5.1.1 requirements and Annex A unless your customer agrees to waive it. In latter case it's considered that customer has suitable statement in their CSR. In contrary case there is no formal evidence for auditor that your customer does not need CP in AIAG form.
 
Q

QAMMAN

#5
Hi dbzman,

Why would you not want to use the latest version of the control plan process? I have a feeling he is sighting you for the wrong nonconformance. If you use the latest version of the AIAG control plan and fill it out based on the guidance given in the APQP/Control Plan reference manual. You would be meeting all of these requirements.

The only problem I have run into in the past was when I had an auditor tell me one time that if the customer doesn't specify any key characteristics it is our responsibility to evaluate the part and determine our own key characteristics. I can't say I agree with her or always do that, but she does make a good point. Every part has some type of key characteristic.

Again I have a feeling your auditor should have sited you for an out-dated form (although this is just an assumption). I have attached a template of a flow chart, PFMEA, and control plan that I use as a template when I write my process flows. I always start with the flow chart and work from there.

I don't claim to be an expert here but I have been able to use this same basic format for several years now. For the most part when I write these I go to other similar jobs and copy and past rows from other C/P's and PFMEA's that fit the scenario. In other words once you have developed enough of them they are pretty easy.

I am sure some of the experts would rip me apart but I have big shoulders and can take their criticism. Actually I would appreciate it.

One last point is on RPN's. The ones in this template are very high. Most of the PFMEA's I do these days are lower. Don't pay to much attention to them but use the guidance given in the PFMEA manual in stead.
 

Attachments

Last edited by a moderator:

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#6
From auditor's point of view If you are TS2 sertified you have to follow 7.5.1.1 requirements and Annex A unless your customer agrees to waive it. In latter case it's considered that customer has suitable statement in their CSR. In contrary case there is no formal evidence for auditor that your customer does not need CP in AIAG form.
An approved PPAP that contains the alternate form(s) is evidence of at least tacit customer approval.
 
D

Dvor Nick

#7
An approved PPAP that contains the alternate form(s) is evidence of at least tacit customer approval.
Yes, I pondered on this.. But formally again even PPAP level 5 (e.g.) means that all other documents are kept at supplier site and ready to be submitted to customer..
 
W

world quality

#8
Rember if "CUSTOMER" first seconf third.

Per the PPAP as stated remember all forms have to be signed off and approved by the customer Process Flow, Control Plan, Pfmea. We can go back to the design if necessary. As long as all shalls have been met and agreed up on by the customer or waived. If all is compliant then I would accept or question as necessary.
 

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#9
Yes, I pondered on this.. But formally again even PPAP level 5 (e.g.) means that all other documents are kept at supplier site and ready to be submitted to customer..
That's true, but even level 5 PPAPs have to be approved, so it makes no difference what the submission level is. It's best to use the AIAG format unless there's a good reason not to. If "the organization" is capturing the same information in a different format, and the customer doesn't have an objection, then there's probably no good reason to change things.
 
D

Dvor Nick

#10
That's true, but even level 5 PPAPs have to be approved, so it makes no difference what the submission level is. It's best to use the AIAG format unless there's a good reason not to. If "the organization" is capturing the same information in a different format, and the customer doesn't have an objection, then there's probably no good reason to change things.
Yes. The only problem how to persuade the auditor that customer doesn't object :) :confused:
 
Thread starter Similar threads Forum Replies Date
Jimmy123 What is the difference between Error Proofing and Controls? ISO/IATF 16949 - Control Plans FMEA and Control Plans 16
optomist1 TS 16949 Control Plans - Non-Production Parts IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 1
M Linking Process Flow Charts, FMEAS and Control Plans for TS 16949 FMEA and Control Plans 4
S TS 16949 Compliant Control Plans - Does every item need a record? FMEA and Control Plans 5
A Control plans - TS 16949:2002 requires corrective actions to be addressed FMEA and Control Plans 21
B PFMEA's and control plans from something like an Access database for TS 16949:2000 Quality Assurance and Compliance Software Tools and Solutions 2
S TS 16949 Clause 7.5.1.1 - Control Plan - Control Plans required for ALL processes? IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 2
P IATF 16949 requirement - error-proofing in control plan IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 3
earl62 What is the best way to control special characteristics in Control plan? Is it Mandatory to have SPC for IATF 16949? IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 12
V IATF 16949 8.4.1 Control of externally provided processes, products and services - Should the CB be on our Approved Supplier List? IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 10
Ashland78 IATF 16949 Control Plan Authorizations IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 2
W Purchased Part Control Plan (IATF 16949) FMEA and Control Plans 7
Howard Atkins MSAs are now required on every feature of the control plan - IATF 16949 IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 13
K Alternate Control Methods (IATF 16949 Cl. 8.3.6.1) IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 1
L IATF 16949 Cl. 7.1 - Lotus Notes for Document Control IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 0
S Complying with IATF 16949 Cl. 8.4.2.1 - Type and extent of control IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 1
I IATF 16949 Cl. 8.7.1.4 Control of reworked product IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 2
J IATF 16949:2016 8.4.1 Control of Externally Provided Products IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 2
B IATF 16949 Clause 8.5.6.1.1 (Temporary Process Control Change) IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 25
T IATF 16949 Control Plan and Process Monitoring Requirement(s) IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 1
M Control and Identification of ISO/TS 16949:2009 Documentation. ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 4
S TS 16949 Outside Process Control Requirements IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 3
M How to Control Nonconforming Product? TS 16949 Clause 8.3 IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 2
M TS 16949 Cause 7.4.1: Type of Control vs. Extent of Control (Definitions) IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 5
J TS 16949 Flag - Document Control Required? Document Control Systems, Procedures, Forms and Templates 6
T TS 16949 compliant Change Control Management Process IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 3
D ISO/TS 16949 Calibration Control and Process Improvement IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 7
M TS 16949 Production Control Plan Requirements - Format(s) APQP and PPAP 4
A PFMEA and Control Plan Connections - TS 16949 Clause 7.3.3.2 FMEA and Control Plans 24
D Electronic Document Control System suitable for TS 16949 Requirements Document Control Systems, Procedures, Forms and Templates 2
T TS 16949 Clause 7.5.1.1 - Audit Finding - Control Plan Requirements IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 11
M TS 16949 Control Of Documents - Operator Instructions IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 6
Douglas E. Purdy Control of Disposition of Records - Record Retention - TS 16949 Clause 4.2.4.1 Records and Data - Quality, Legal and Other Evidence 8
J Change Control - Product Realization example procedure - TS 16949 Clause 7.1.4 Document Control Systems, Procedures, Forms and Templates 4
D TS 16949 Control Plan and Part Number Revision Change Level FMEA and Control Plans 1
T Supplier Control in TS 16949 - How to spice up my Internal Audit questions IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 13
J Document and Record Control - One Procedure or Two? TS 16949 Document Control Systems, Procedures, Forms and Templates 9
D Change Control Procedure and form / template - TS 16949 Clause 7.1.4 IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 1
A Does ISO 9001 or TS 16949 have any requirement like 777 rules for control charts? Statistical Analysis Tools, Techniques and SPC 12
L Differences between quality plan and control plan in TS 16949:2002 FMEA and Control Plans 1
C Corrective action in control plan per Annex A of ISO/ TS 16949: 2002 standard FMEA and Control Plans 4
D Control of Computer Generated Forms - TS 16949 requirements Document Control Systems, Procedures, Forms and Templates 1
D Control of Computer Generated (Electronic) Forms - TS 16949 Control Requirements Document Control Systems, Procedures, Forms and Templates 9
Y TS 16949 Clause 7.3.6.2 Prototype programme and control plan IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 5
S AIAG's Control Plan Reference Manual - GONE from TS 16949 as a referenced document? IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 9
R TS 16949 Clause 7.6 Control of Monitoring and Measuring Devices IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 12
S TS 16949:2002 - Error Proofing Column Required in Control Plan II FMEA and Control Plans 22
A Electronic Control Design Company - Can We Register to TS 16949? Design and Development of Products and Processes 11
R TS 16949 - Clause 4.2.3 - Identification and Control of Documents of External Origin IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 15
L TS 16949 - How do you handle and control Management Review Records? Management Review Meetings and related Processes 14

Similar threads

Top Bottom