TS 16949 and Control Plans - Need Tier II/III follow AIAG Annex A Format?

[dbzman]

We are a tier II or III supplier to some automotive suppliers. During a recent audit the auditor wrote us a non conforming for not having the Control Plan in the format found in Annex A in the back of the TS manual. Does this have to be the format? The customer does not require the AIAG format nor do they state that it has to be the format of the Annex.
Under the title ANNEX A is has (normative). Does this mean that it is the normal format but not the mandatory one? The standard points to the annex by say (See annex a). Is this saying that it is a requirement or that it is just a suggestion?

Help!!!


:mg:

 

[world quality]

DBZMAN,

As long as your customer agrees and that the control plan meets the following requirements, (as stated SHALL) then that is a call that your quality manager or director should question with the auditor.

 

[Stijloor]

We are a tier II or III supplier to some automotive suppliers. During a recent audit the auditor wrote us a non conforming for not having the Control Plan in the format found in Annex A in the back of the TS manual. Does this have to be the format? The customer does not require the AIAG format nor do they state that it has to be the format of the Annex.
Under the title ANNEX A is has (normative). Does this mean that it is the normal format but not the mandatory one? The standard points to the annex by say (See annex a). Is this saying that it is a requirement or that it is just a suggestion?

Help!!!:mg:

I assume that you are ISO/TS 16949:2002 certified, is that correct?

Annex A in ISO/TS says "normative." In Standards lingo that means mandatory requirements for the control plan. Not necessarily a particular format. Although most automotive suppliers use the AIAG format.

Just make sure that your control plans contain as a minimum the contents spelled out in Annex A. Section 6 in the APQP manual gives you guidelines, not requirements for preparing control plans.

Hope this helps.

Stijloor.

 

[Dvor Nick]

From auditor's point of view If you are TS2 sertified you have to follow 7.5.1.1 requirements and Annex A unless your customer agrees to waive it. In latter case it's considered that customer has suitable statement in their CSR. In contrary case there is no formal evidence for auditor that your customer does not need CP in AIAG form.

 

[QAMMAN]

Hi dbzman,

Why would you not want to use the latest version of the control plan process? I have a feeling he is sighting you for the wrong nonconformance. If you use the latest version of the AIAG control plan and fill it out based on the guidance given in the APQP/Control Plan reference manual. You would be meeting all of these requirements.

The only problem I have run into in the past was when I had an auditor tell me one time that if the customer doesn't specify any key characteristics it is our responsibility to evaluate the part and determine our own key characteristics. I can't say I agree with her or always do that, but she does make a good point. Every part has some type of key characteristic.

Again I have a feeling your auditor should have sited you for an out-dated form (although this is just an assumption). I have attached a template of a flow chart, PFMEA, and control plan that I use as a template when I write my process flows. I always start with the flow chart and work from there.

I don't claim to be an expert here but I have been able to use this same basic format for several years now. For the most part when I write these I go to other similar jobs and copy and past rows from other C/P's and PFMEA's that fit the scenario. In other words once you have developed enough of them they are pretty easy.

I am sure some of the experts would rip me apart but I have big shoulders and can take their criticism. Actually I would appreciate it.

One last point is on RPN's. The ones in this template are very high. Most of the PFMEA's I do these days are lower. Don't pay to much attention to them but use the guidance given in the PFMEA manual in stead.

 

[Jim Wynne]

From auditor's point of view If you are TS2 sertified you have to follow 7.5.1.1 requirements and Annex A unless your customer agrees to waive it. In latter case it's considered that customer has suitable statement in their CSR. In contrary case there is no formal evidence for auditor that your customer does not need CP in AIAG form.

An approved PPAP that contains the alternate form(s) is evidence of at least tacit customer approval.

 

[Dvor Nick]

An approved PPAP that contains the alternate form(s) is evidence of at least tacit customer approval.

Yes, I pondered on this.. But formally again even PPAP level 5 (e.g.) means that all other documents are kept at supplier site and ready to be submitted to customer..

 

[world quality]

Rember if "CUSTOMER" first seconf third.

Per the PPAP as stated remember all forms have to be signed off and approved by the customer Process Flow, Control Plan, Pfmea. We can go back to the design if necessary. As long as all shalls have been met and agreed up on by the customer or waived. If all is compliant then I would accept or question as necessary.

 

[Jim Wynne]

Yes, I pondered on this.. But formally again even PPAP level 5 (e.g.) means that all other documents are kept at supplier site and ready to be submitted to customer..

That's true, but even level 5 PPAPs have to be approved, so it makes no difference what the submission level is. It's best to use the AIAG format unless there's a good reason not to. If "the organization" is capturing the same information in a different format, and the customer doesn't have an objection, then there's probably no good reason to change things.

 

[Dvor Nick]

That's true, but even level 5 PPAPs have to be approved, so it makes no difference what the submission level is. It's best to use the AIAG format unless there's a good reason not to. If "the organization" is capturing the same information in a different format, and the customer doesn't have an objection, then there's probably no good reason to change things.

Yes. The only problem how to persuade the auditor that customer doesn't object