TS 16949 Clause 7.4.1.2 ? Is my understanding correct?

[darkafar]

TS 16949 Clause 7.4.1.2 – Is my understanding correct?

TS Clause 7.4.1.2 states:

7.4.1.2 Supplier quality management system development
The organization shall perform supplier quality management system development with the goal of supplier conformity with this Technical Specification. Conformity with ISO 9001:2000 is the first step in achieving this goal.
NOTE The prioritization of suppliers for development depends upon, for example, the supplier’s quality performance and the importance of the product supplied.
Unless otherwise specified by the customer, suppliers to the organization shall be third party registered to ISO 9001:2000 by an accredited third-party certification body.

The following is my understanding:

1. If I have 20 suppliers, and I only develop one supplier’s quality management system with the goal of conformity with TS standard, I meet this requirement, because the standard doesn’t say I have to develop every supplier’s quality management system, even if they are not compliant with TS.

2. The standard says, “This Technical Specification, coupled with applicable customer-specific requirements, defines the fundamental quality management system requirements for those subscribing to this document.” Complying with our specific requirements is part of the requirements of the standard. So developing the supplier’s quality management system with the goal of supplier conformity with TS can simply be demonstrated by helping the supplier to comply with our specific requirements.

3. The standard says, “with the goal of supplier conformity with this technical specification”. So I have no need to ask the supplier to give a schedule when they will be TS registered. I can do it myself. I make TS requirements our specific requirements, and ask the supplier to comply. I audit the supplier, and find the supplier is compliant, and then I declare the supplier is conforming to TS standard.

4. If one of our supplier is very cooperative and always provides good quality product, but, alas, they are not ISO or TS registered, we want to continue doing business with them, all we have to do is get our customer’s permission.

I’m not sure if I get it right. Looking for your opinion.

 

[D.Scott]

Re: TS clause 7.4.1.2 – is my understanding correct?

TS Clause 7.4.1.2 states:

7.4.1.2 Supplier quality management system development
The organization shall perform supplier quality management system development with the goal of supplier conformity with this Technical Specification. Conformity with ISO 9001:2000 is the first step in achieving this goal.
NOTE The prioritization of suppliers for development depends upon, for example, the supplier’s quality performance and the importance of the product supplied.
Unless otherwise specified by the customer, suppliers to the organization shall be third party registered to ISO 9001:2000 by an accredited third-party certification body.

The following is my understanding:

1. If I have 20 suppliers, and I only develop one supplier’s quality management system with the goal of conformity with TS standard, I meet this requirement, because the standard doesn’t say I have to develop every supplier’s quality management system, even if they are not compliant with TS.

2. The standard says, “This Technical Specification, coupled with applicable customer-specific requirements, defines the fundamental quality management system requirements for those subscribing to this document.” Complying with our specific requirements is part of the requirements of the standard. So developing the supplier’s quality management system with the goal of supplier conformity with TS can simply be demonstrated by helping the supplier to comply with our specific requirements.

3. The standard says, “with the goal of supplier conformity with this technical specification”. So I have no need to ask the supplier to give a schedule when they will be TS registered. I can do it myself. I make TS requirements our specific requirements, and ask the supplier to comply. I audit the supplier, and find the supplier is compliant, and then I declare the supplier is conforming to TS standard.

4. If one of our supplier is very cooperative and always provides good quality product, but, alas, they are not ISO or TS registered, we want to continue doing business with them, all we have to do is get our customer’s permission.

I’m not sure if I get it right. Looking for your opinion.

Well, not quite IMHO.

1) Although the standard doesn't specifically state "all", the implication and intent is for all suppliers providing materials for use in product realization. You should help develop all their systems to conform to TS 16949.

2) As long as you also develop them to meet the requirements of the standard. Development to meet your requirements would be part of the process.

3) True to a point. You could mandate compliance by a specific date then go and audit. If you worked with the supplier on a time line and determined they are performing to that time line, that could also meet the requirement. Additionally, there is no requirement for your supplier to be TS registered. The requirement is to be ISO 9001 registered and TS16949 compliant.

4) That is true however you will need the permission of all the customers you use that supplier for. The permission of one customer will not apply to other customers.

Dave

 

[darkafar]

Re: TS clause 7.4.1.2 – is my understanding correct?

Well, not quite IMHO.

1) Although the standard doesn't specifically state "all", the implication and intent is for all suppliers providing materials for use in product realization. You should help develop all their systems to conform to TS 16949.

Dave

But I don't have to, right?

The standard says

NOTE The prioritization of suppliers for development depends upon, for example, the supplier’s quality performance and the importance of the product supplied.

so i can alway explain to the auditor i didn't develop this supplier's QMS because it is not a priority, right?

 

[Stijloor]

Re: TS clause 7.4.1.2 – is my understanding correct?

But I don't have to, right?

The standard says

NOTE The prioritization of suppliers for development depends upon, for example, the supplier’s quality performance and the importance of the product supplied.

so i can alway explain to the auditor i didn't develop this supplier's QMS because it is not a priority, right?

Hello Darkafar,

Could you prove it? In other words, could you show the evidence that a particular supplier is "low priority?" You should develop a simple list of supplier selection and evaluation criteria that would help you determine "impact" of the supplier.

Stijloor.

 

[D.Scott]

Re: TS clause 7.4.1.2 – is my understanding correct?

But I don't have to, right?

The standard says

NOTE The prioritization of suppliers for development depends upon, for example, the supplier’s quality performance and the importance of the product supplied.

so i can alway explain to the auditor i didn't develop this supplier's QMS because it is not a priority, right?

Sorry to be a hard nose on this but I can't agree with what you are saying here. The note allows you to determine which supplier is most critical for development and which can be brought along at a slower pace. You must develop ALL your suppliers over a period of time to compliance to 16949 (the exception we discussed obviously over-rides this). The note simply clarifies that you don't need to bring everyone along at the same pace.

Dave

 

[darkafar]

Re: TS clause 7.4.1.2 – is my understanding correct?

I see.
My plan goes this way:
If the supplier has been ISO9001 certified, it can be a qualified supplier.
If the supplier has been performing well for a year, it can be a supplier partner.

The supplier partner must be enthusiastic in improvement, must voluntarily propose to become a supplier partner, and must improve to become TS compliant.

Of course I don’t know which supplier has this attitude at first, so I have to use them for a while. And the criteria for supplier system development would be: 1, they ask us for help to be become TS compliant, 2, the ones that we choose to become our future supplier partner.

For other qualified suppliers, if they have no intention to become TS compliant, we use them for a while, and then kick them out of the QVL, stop doing business with them.

I do this because becoming TS compliant need resource. The supplier may not want to become TS compliant. If I use customer’s privilege to force the supplier to become TS compliant, they may not embrace the system wholeheartedly, or they may forward the extra cost to us, and this embrace of TS seems more tactical than strategic, which, in my view, is against TS standard, “The adoption of a quality management system should be a strategic decision of an organization.”

If I do this, do you think I still meet the standard?

If I allow a supplier not compliant with TS exist for a while, not telling them to become TS compliant, then kick them out of our QVL, it is hard to tell if I have the intention to develop their system to become TS compliant (I can say they did not ask for help), and obviously I did not develop all my suppliers to become TS compliant.

 

[Stijloor]

Re: TS 16949 Clause 7.4.1.2 – Is my understanding correct?

Hello Darkafar,

Before you finalize your plan, you may want to read the attachment. This may help you to clarify the requirements.

In addition, you may want to search and look for supplier development information here at The Cove. It is not a simple issue and can get very complex if you're not careful. Let us know and we'll continue to help.

Stijloor.

 

[ignatiuswong]

Re: TS 16949 Clause 7.4.1.2 – Is my understanding correct?

Dear Darkafar,

i have a same problems with you, but maybe our company more complicated than your company, if supplier not have any certificate ISO or TS, we must eliminate from our QVL it caused our company have ISO TS assesment, but actually we cannot eliminate the supplier, cause if we change supplier, we must have to test the supplier part to our research and design center, it need a lot of time and it need a highly cost. thats complicated???

 

[D.Scott]

Re: TS 16949 Clause 7.4.1.2 – Is my understanding correct?

Dear Darkafar,

i have a same problems with you, but maybe our company more complicated than your company, if supplier not have any certificate ISO or TS, we must eliminate from our QVL it caused our company have ISO TS assesment, but actually we cannot eliminate the supplier, cause if we change supplier, we must have to test the supplier part to our research and design center, it need a lot of time and it need a highly cost. thats complicated???

I think you will find there are other alternatives to eliminating the supplier. First, you are required to develop the QMS of your supplier. That applies to new suppliers as well as suppliers who have been around for a long time. If you find a supplier who has no "official" quality management system (he is not certified to ISO) that doesn't mean you can't use them at all. Your responsibility is to develop them to the point of acceptability. The first step is certification to ISO 9001. The supplier should be working toward that goal and be able to give you a time line for completion of that step. The interpretation given for the length of that time line is "within the 3 year certification cycle". If it were not for this interpretation, no start-up supplier could ever be considered as an automotive supplier.

Once the first step is complete you need to continue developing the supplier toward compliance with TS16949. Once again, the speed in which they need to be developed is dictated by the effect they have on your company as a supplier.

Another alternative to eliminating them would be to have your customer give you a waiver as stated earlier in the thread.

There is a provision for 2nd party assessment which makes it possible for your company to audit and "approve" the supplier.

There is also a "small business" provision which can help in some cases.

I suggest you look at this thread for more information. http://elsmar.com/Forums/postings.php?do=getip&p=85628

Dave