TS 16949 Clause 8.2.4.1 - Yearly Layout Inspection Requirements

[Helmut Jilling]

I would like to add a question, may I?

What is the way to inform customer if requirements are not met in a layout inspection?

Still I have two cases that I'll explain:

1 - A layout inspection is done and some of the drawing specifications didn't match (e.g. diameter below spec.). This specifications are not critical or safety characteristics. Should I inform customer or just do an action plan without informing customer?

2 - A layout inspection is done and some of the drawing specifications didn't match (e.g. diameter below spec.). This specifications were not considered on the current PPAP which was approved by customer, even without measuring all drawing specification (e.g. just 10 of 13 specifications ballooned. Should I inform customer or just do an action plan without informing customer?

Thank you!
Ps:This is my first post

Example #1 - What you describe means you have been shipping nonconforming product, perhaps for a significant period of time. This is one of the reasons for requiring annual layouts - to see if the process ahs drifted. It also suggest you are not doing adequate internal inspection, and that may need to be reviewed.

You need to initiate an internal corrective action, and immdiately inform your customer and discuss what is the best reaction to the situation.

Example #1 - Same answer as #1 above. Further, your PPAP process is not complete and you need to do corrective action to determine why this was missed internally. The fact the customer approved the PPAP is not a guarantee they noticed or approved this gap. That is why PPAP requires a full layout in the first place - so these descrpancies can be discussed with the customer.

 

[C.R.V.G.]

Example #1 - What you describe means you have been shipping nonconforming product, perhaps for a significant period of time. This is one of the reasons for requiring annual layouts - to see if the process ahs drifted. It also suggest you are not doing adequate internal inspection, and that may need to be reviewed.

You need to initiate an internal corrective action, and immdiately inform your customer and discuss what is the best reaction to the situation.

Example #1 - Same answer as #1 above. Further, your PPAP process is not complete and you need to do corrective action to determine why this was missed internally. The fact the customer approved the PPAP is not a guarantee they noticed or approved this gap. That is why PPAP requires a full layout in the first place - so these descrpancies can be discussed with the customer.

I see. This is a tough experience I'm passing through. I was hired two months ago and here there's a lot of PPAPs exactly as case #2. Of course I'm doing all layouts based on the whole drawing and referenced standards, but I surely know that I'll find a lot of discrepancies. I just want to know how to inform customer (if there is a procedure) because ISO/TS doesn't specify how to.

There's no problem to do an action plan, CSL or any kind of containment and corrective actions. I'm only afraid if customers block our shipments by informing them

Once again

 

[Helmut Jilling]

I see. This is a tough experience I'm passing through. I was hired two months ago and here there's a lot of PPAPs exactly as case #2. Of course I'm doing all layouts based on the whole drawing and referenced standards, but I surely know that I'll find a lot of discrepancies. I just want to know how to inform customer (if there is a procedure) because ISO/TS doesn't specify how to.

There's no problem to do an action plan, CSL or any kind of containment and corrective actions. I'm only afraid if customers block our shipments by informing them

Once again

Yes, this is a potentially difficult situation. But, hopefully, this is why you were hired. If companies try to hide this sort of thing, it eventually blows up into a bigger thing, and will damage the company and perhaps, even your career.

You should do some checks, and get a sense of how big this issue will be. Keep clear records.

Meet with management team, and discuss your findigns, and what TS requires (ref cl 8.3 - this is where TS specifies what actions you must take. Also, review the PPAP and APQP manuals, they address NC issue this also.

Prioritize the failures, categorize them as to whether they affect the Fit, Form and Function, and prepare to discuss the analysis results with the customer. This step should include top mgt as well. It should not be YOUR problem...YOU have to position yourself as the fixer of this company issue. Not the scapegoat.

PS: It is sometimes difficult to do the right thing, but in the long run, your integrity is not something you want to gamble with. Do the right thing, and preach that to your team and your customers.

And, if your company presses you to do the wrong things, consider whether you really want to spend the rest of your career at a company like that? This will not be the only ethical issue that arises.

And, I might add, sometimes it is helpful to use a good consultant to help you initiate this kind of correction project. that keeps you from being the only guy "causing problems" and gives a little more authoritive and experienced perspective to the management team.

Best of luck. Stay in touch and let us know how it goes. You can also private message me if you have private guidance questions.