TS 16949 Consultant said "Get rid of all of these Procedures and Work Instructions"

J

jkmommi

#1
Hi all- a few weeks ago I posted a question regarding getting rid of procedures that are not required per TS. The responses were that we should basically leave things alone.
Yesterday we had a TS consultant come in to do a Process Auditing Training Class-He advised us to get rid of all procedures and work instructions except for the ones required by TS. He noted that most procedures and wi's can remain controlled documents, but to call them "training records". You cannot be dinged for not following a training record, but you can for not following a procedure-even if it's not a requirement in the standard. He said the whole concept of TS was to get rid of all the paperwork to make it easier for companies, and to give back some of the creativity that QS took away with it's strict regulations.

Just thought I'd pass along the information...
 
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C

Craig H.

#2
Been there, tried that years ago with an ISO 9002 auditor. The audit went something like this:

Auditor (to worker): So, how do you know that is the correct setting?

Worker: It is in our training materials.

Auditor: May I see those training materials?

Me: Sure, here they are, at the worker's work station.

Auditor: Oh, well I see a discrepancy here. It appears that the wrong setting has been used. DING!!!!

It does not matter much if you call them procedures, training documents, or the Tome of the Grand Poobah, you still will be audited against them. Further, why do you have these documents in the first place? If your answer is that they exist so that your workers have the current and correct information they need when they need it, I would be quite concerned about the approach you have outlined.


Of course, this is just my opinion, and I do have limited experience....
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#3
jkmommi said:
Hi all- a few weeks ago I posted a question regarding getting rid of procedures that are not required per TS. The responses were that we should basically leave things alone.
Yesterday we had a TS consultant come in to do a Process Auditing Training Class-He advised us to get rid of all procedures and work instructions except for the ones required by TS. He noted that most procedures and wi's can remain controlled documents, but to call them "training records". You cannot be dinged for not following a training record, but you can for not following a procedure-even if it's not a requirement in the standard. He said the whole concept of TS was to get rid of all the paperwork to make it easier for companies, and to give back some of the creativity that QS took away with it's strict regulations.

Just thought I'd pass along the information...
It looks like all the TS standard is doing is helping consultants to continue making their boat payments. Let's think about this for a minute--why does your company have all of that documentation to begin with? If the documentation serves a useful purpose in supporting your quality system, why would you want to get rid of it? If, on the other hand, the documentation was produced just to satisfy a registrar's auditors and its usefulness expires with the obsolete ISO certificate, why worry about it?
 

howste

Thaumaturge
Super Moderator
#4
jkmommi said:
Yesterday we had a TS consultant come in to do a Process Auditing Training Class-He advised us to get rid of all procedures and work instructions except for the ones required by TS. He noted that most procedures and wi's can remain controlled documents, but to call them "training records". You cannot be dinged for not following a training record, but you can for not following a procedure-even if it's not a requirement in the standard.
My question is this: was this advice given to improve the business, or just to make it easier to pass an audit?

A blanket statement to "get rid of documents that aren't required by TS" is poor advice in my opinion. It's a great idea to get rid of documents that don't add value and that aren't really used, but many documents (that are not required by TS) don't fall into that category.

Documents exist to support the competencies of the individuals doing tasks, and to assist in controlling processes. A survey I read some time ago showed that one of the top 5 nonconformance areas for companies transitioning from ISO 9001:1994 to ISO 9001:2000 was exactly what you are describing. They took away all of the "non-required" documents, and their processes suffered. By the way, read what clause 4.2.1d says in the standard... :read:
jkmommi said:
He said the whole concept of TS was to get rid of all the paperwork to make it easier for companies, and to give back some of the creativity that QS took away with it's strict regulations.
That's an interesting thought. :rolleyes: It's true that documentation is de-emphasized, but that's not even close to the whole concept of TS. :nope:
 
R

Randy Stewart

#6
You would have thought by now that somewhere, somebody would have remembered what happened with the kick off of QS.

For those of you who have read my posts over the years, you probably know what I'm going to type next -- Do not change your system just to appease an auditor. Never, never, never. If the procedures and WIs work for you and your operators why change? The last thing you need is an operator that is uncomfortable with their job. Unless you have a 110% mistake proof process I would not remove instructions (if they are being utilized for their intended purpose). If all they were for was window dressing then get rid of them. It's your system - not the auditors.
 
M

MikeL

#7
Everything old is new again

Did you know that ISO 9001:1987 only required about six documented procedures?

TS is really no different in practice from QS despite all the hype about process approach.

It has been an opportunity to remove some deadwood.
 
Z

Z-Man

#8
ISO Never Required a Specific Number of Procedures

ISO 9001:2000 specifically requires the organization to have "documented procedures" for the following six activities:
4.2.3 Control of documents
4.2.4 Control of records
8.2.2 Internal audit
8.3 Control of nonconforming product
8.5.2 Corrective action
8.5.3 Preventive action

Some organizations may find it convenient to combine the procedure for several activities into a single documented procedure (for example, corrective action and preventive action). Others may choose to document a given activity by using more than one documented procedure (for example, Internal audits). Both are acceptable
 

Jen Kirley

Quality and Auditing Expert
Staff member
Admin
#9
jkmommi said:
Hi all- a few weeks ago I posted a question regarding getting rid of procedures that are not required per TS. The responses were that we should basically leave things alone.
Yesterday we had a TS consultant come in to do a Process Auditing Training Class-He advised us to get rid of all procedures and work instructions except for the ones required by TS. He noted that most procedures and wi's can remain controlled documents, but to call them "training records". You cannot be dinged for not following a training record, but you can for not following a procedure-even if it's not a requirement in the standard. He said the whole concept of TS was to get rid of all the paperwork to make it easier for companies, and to give back some of the creativity that QS took away with it's strict regulations.

Just thought I'd pass along the information...
Of course there's such a thing as having too many procedures. The habit of writing a procedure or work instruction to do a job can get out of hand, if the job isn't being done anymore, or if it's no longer determined controlled and so on, and these things, all of them auditable, pile up.

So long as the consultant meant this, fine. He could have, but our collective impression of course is that he wants you to only have controlled documents for the bare minimum needed. That sounds good, but the message I'm receiving here is that he wants you to have a system that is built per the standard. The object is, however, to have a system that is right for you and satisfies the standard.

So, unless this person is quite clear on which documents can be eliminated, downgraded or whatever, why, and that it wouldn't make people feel confused or make mistakes, I am leery of this fellow. But I did get the feeling there is more to what he said than the simple message as it is quoted on this forum.

Did he elaborate, coach or otherwise give details about which documents were adding dead weight to the system?
 

Manoj Mathur

Quite Involved in Discussions
#10
My Question appropriate to this Thread !

Auditors are Inspector or what to check whether an operator/ Workman is doing the thing as written in procedure or so called W.I.?

If it is true then what about rest of the time when activities is not being audited by that Auditor ?

I feel there is no value addition if an auditor checks the activity and check the document for unity.

In my previous plant Unfortunately, it was misprinted in a W.I that Spill the Chemical after adding Conc. Acid. But a good audior came and saw both Activity as well as W.I. He objected not for difference in Right Actvity and Wrong W.I. But for Wrong W.I.
 
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