TS 16949 Continual Improvement Requirements vs. QS-9000 Requirements

T

tlarosa

#1
I am confused about continual improvement in ISO/TS 16949.

In the QS-9000 days, continuous improvement meant to get better at something that you were already doing well in. For example, if you were achieving a Cpk of 1.67 in a process, then you can improve by setting a target of 2.00 and make the necessary changes to arrive at the new target.

However, in ISO/TS 16949, the meaning seems to have changed because now you can use corrective and preventive actions as inputs to continually improve.

QS-9000 made distinctions between corrective action, preventive action, and continuous improvement. TS seems to say that corrective or preventing a nonconformity can serve as a continual improvement activity.

Is anybody seeing the same thing I am?????
 
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howste

Thaumaturge
Trusted Information Resource
#2
TS 16949 makes this distinction in the very narrow view of statistically controlled manufacturing processes. You can find the carryover from QS9000 in a note under 8.5.1.2 Manufacturing process improvement:
TS 16949:2009 said:
Manufacturing process improvement shall continually focus upon control and reduction of variation in product characteristics and manufacturing process parameters.

NOTE 1 Controlled characteristics are documented in the control plan.

NOTE 2 Continual improvement is implemented once manufacturing processes are capable and stable, or product characteristics are predictable and meet customer requirements.
The current definition for continual improvement is:
ISO 9000:2005 said:
continual improvement
recurring activity to increase the ability to fulfil requirements
I see this recurring activity as the Plan-Do-Check-Act cycle. As you noted, continual improvement of processes may be achieved with the use of both corrective actions and preventive actions. For example, an organization is tracking efficiency of a process, and has a goal of 90% efficiency. Over time, by identifying and eliminating wasted effort or other undesirable situations not related to product variation or conformity, the organization increases the efficiency and achieves 90%. This would be considered continual improvement, and doesn't violate the spirit of the note.
 

qusys

Trusted Information Resource
#3
I am confused about continual improvement in ISO/TS 16949.

In the QS-9000 days, continuous improvement meant to get better at something that you were already doing well in. For example, if you were achieving a Cpk of 1.67 in a process, then you can improve by setting a target of 2.00 and make the necessary changes to arrive at the new target.

However, in ISO/TS 16949, the meaning seems to have changed because now you can use corrective and preventive actions as inputs to continually improve.

QS-9000 made distinctions between corrective action, preventive action, and continuous improvement. TS seems to say that corrective or preventing a nonconformity can serve as a continual improvement activity.

Is anybody seeing the same thing I am?????
Hi,
I am not on the same line.
Corrective actions are related to fix a problem where you are not compliant, preventive actions are action aimed at fixing a "potential issue".
I see continual improvement linked to projects to improve processes where the organization is already in line with goals and targets.
We can say that it is the "leverage" for the organization not to sleep on good results, to remain competitive and better serve Customers in terms of quality, costs and times.
However there are many current of thought in this sense and so you can find multiple interpretations. I think that it is important for an organization to give itself a method and criteria for continual improvement. For example, ISO 9004 suggests PDCA as a good methodology to aling organization in its whole to improve. As usual, top mgmt sponsorship is key
:bigwave:
 
C

ChrissieO

#4
Hi,
I am not on the same line.
Corrective actions are related to fix a problem where you are not compliant, preventive actions are action aimed at fixing a "potential issue".
I see continual improvement linked to projects to improve processes where the organization is already in line with goals and targets.
We can say that it is the "leverage" for the organization not to sleep on good results, to remain competitive and better serve Customers in terms of quality, costs and times.
However there are many current of thought in this sense and so you can find multiple interpretations. I think that it is important for an organization to give itself a method and criteria for continual improvement. For example, ISO 9004 suggests PDCA as a good methodology to aling organization in its whole to improve. As usual, top mgmt sponsorship is key
:bigwave:
If you put preventive action in place to prevent the possible future failure, are you not in fact improving your processes?.................and in the same vein, if you put in place corrective action in place is this not also improving your processes.

I think along with improvement projects etc CAPA is part of CI.

Chrissie
 

qusys

Trusted Information Resource
#5
If you put preventive action in place to prevent the possible future failure, are you not in fact improving your processes?.................and in the same vein, if you put in place corrective action in place is this not also improving your processes.

I think along with improvement projects etc CAPA is part of CI.

Chrissie

Yes and not , it is a question of interpretation.
As to preventive action, probably yes, because you are doing something to avoid a potential issue and to so you are change something. But howver I think we are borderline

As to corrective you shall fix the problem, so you do not improve given that you are not in compliance .

In my tought, I see Continual improvement as a sort of process that improve QMS in terms of cost, quality and methods, when the organization already achieved objectives.
To show this, organization should demonstrate a step ahead on its KPI.

This is my idea that I share. I also agree with your mind:bigwave:
 

howste

Thaumaturge
Trusted Information Resource
#7
As to corrective you shall fix the problem, so you do not improve given that you are not in compliance.
Not always true. Look again at the definition of corrective action:
ISO 9000:2005 said:
corrective action
action to eliminate the cause of a detected nonconformity or other undesirable situation
You can meet requirements, but still have "undesirable situations" that you can take corrective action on to continually improve.
 
T

tlarosa

#8
Not always true. Look again at the definition of corrective action:

You can meet requirements, but still have "undesirable situations" that you can take corrective action on to continually improve.
Very good point.
 

qusys

Trusted Information Resource
#9
Not always true. Look again at the definition of corrective action:

You can meet requirements, but still have "undesirable situations" that you can take corrective action on to continually improve.
Agree with you.
I would also like to share with you that some definitions have always a sort of "escape point" as I was taught in many training I attended regarding ISO and Quality Systems.
Again , to come back to definition you mentioned, this could also open to another interpretation of " preventive actions".
I mean that action on " undesiderable situation" could also be seen as preventive action too...:bigwave:
 

howste

Thaumaturge
Trusted Information Resource
#10
I mean that action on " undesiderable situation" could also be seen as preventive action too...:bigwave:
It depends on if the situation exists now, or just has the potential to exist...
ISO 9000:2005 said:
preventive action
action to eliminate the cause of a potential nonconformity or other undesirable potential situation
 
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