TS 16949 External Lab for Raw Material Certs for PPAPs

[Helmut Jilling]

I would definitely challenge the NC. If you have an approved PPAP that does not include the lab documentation the auditor was looking for, that's direct evidence that the statement "The product approval process is not conducted as required by customers." is wrong. There are many instances where elements are not applicable to a given PPAP, even when the submission level is 3.

The lab scope document is part of a level 3 submission, if you follow the blue PPAP book. The issue would not be that the c of c came from an ISO company...in that regard the auditor was incorrect. Rather, that a C of C is not sufficient too address the PPAP requirement. It states that a lab scope is also required.

 

[Helmut Jilling]

The NC came from a PPAP audit review, where the auditor stated AIAG PPAP requirements require a TS or ISO 17025 certified lab perform testing of our raw material. Our supplier is only ISO 9001, therefore, their certificate of conformance is not adequate. The only other way out is if our customer agrees to not have the material tested, which is not an option.

The auditor told me that unless directed otherwise by the customer, a general PPAP request by the customer defaults to the AIAG requirements.

My question is whether this is only a requirement for PPAP sumbittal which is above and beyond that of the general TS requirement that suppliers be at least ISO 9001 certified.

I can't see why an auditor would expect all future production material to be lab tested under TS/ISO 17025. In this case, I just wanted to seek other opinions on the matter. I appreciate the responses that have been given.

There is no requirement that internal labs meet ISO 17025. The requirement is that lab scope documents be part of the PPAP. This is a common misunderstanding.

 

[Jim Wynne]

There is no requirement that internal labs meet ISO 17025. The requirement is that lab scope documents be part of the PPAP. This is a common misunderstanding.

There is no requirement for ISO 9001 companies to eve have a lab scope.

 

[Helmut Jilling]

There is no requirement for ISO 9001 companies to eve have a lab scope.

True...but it is a requirement of AIAG PPAP. If a customer requires an ISO 9001 supplier to do an AIAG PPAP, then the supplier has to do the PPAP correctly or he does not meet the customer requirement.

 

[Jim Wynne]

True...but it is a requirement of AIAG PPAP. If a customer requires an ISO 9001 supplier to do an AIAG PPAP, then the supplier has to do the PPAP correctly or he does not meet the customer requirement.

The organization can specify which elements are required.

 

[Jim Wynne]

True...but it is a requirement of AIAG PPAP. If a customer requires an ISO 9001 supplier to do an AIAG PPAP, then the supplier has to do the PPAP correctly or he does not meet the customer requirement.

Also, the PPAP manual requires that the testing is performed by the organization. I don't have the manual in front of me, but it's on page six. This requirement is universally ignored and has gone uncorrected for years. It's patently ridiculous to impose an expensive requirement that serves no useful purpose.

 

[Helmut Jilling]

Also, the PPAP manual requires that the testing is performed by the organization. I don't have the manual in front of me, but it's on page six. This requirement is universally ignored and has gone uncorrected for years. It's patently ridiculous to impose an expensive requirement that serves no useful purpose.

Jim,

I think our comments may be missing each other. I am not suggesting expensive requirements. An organization does not have to use an outside lab, unless the customer specifies it, or they do not have capability. I agreed the auditor was incorrect in that view.

But, when it comes to automotive, the TS rules and requirements apply. TS requires a supplier to be certified to ISO at a minimum, AND compliant to TS. One TS requirement is to have a lab scope document detailing their lab capabilities, ...to be compliant to TS, and because PPAP will require it. It is not expensive to make a lab scope document.

Further, an ISO certified supplier to automotive is required to meet the customer's product approval process. Assuming that is AIAG PPAP, one of the required documents is the lab scope document. The auditor is correct in that part.

 

[Golfman25]

Jim,

I think our comments may be missing each other. I am not suggesting expensive requirements. An organization does not have to use an outside lab, unless the customer specifies it, or they do not have capability. I agreed the auditor was incorrect in that view.

But, when it comes to automotive, the TS rules and requirements apply. TS requires a supplier to be certified to ISO at a minimum, AND compliant to TS. One TS requirement is to have a lab scope document detailing their lab capabilities, ...to be compliant to TS, and because PPAP will require it. It is not expensive to make a lab scope document.

Further, an ISO certified supplier to automotive is required to meet the customer's product approval process. Assuming that is AIAG PPAP, one of the required documents is the lab scope document. The auditor is correct in that part.

I think you are missing the problem. The steel mill or distributor usually provides a mill cert. of the material they supply. That testing is usually done internally at the supplier/mill. Those internal labs may or may not be "compliant" per TS rules. But how does the component supplier show the "lab scope" and compliance of a steel mill they don't deal with directly? In our experience it has been universally accepted that mill certs are adequate. The only one's who seem to disagree are auditors. Go figure.

 

[Helmut Jilling]

I think you are missing the problem. The steel mill or distributor usually provides a mill cert. of the material they supply. That testing is usually done internally at the supplier/mill. Those internal labs may or may not be "compliant" per TS rules. But how does the component supplier show the "lab scope" and compliance of a steel mill they don't deal with directly? In our experience it has been universally accepted that mill certs are adequate. The only one's who seem to disagree are auditors. Go figure.

That is why the steel mill was supposed to do a PPAP, as part of the validation process, to show that their internal lab is, in fact, competent and capable. That is what Jim and I were discussing. You can also have an independent external lab test a sample, if you have any doubts about the mill's lab cert. They are usually correct, but not always. So that would be your call.

 

[Golfman25]

That is why the steel mill was supposed to do a PPAP, as part of the validation process, to show that their internal lab is, in fact, competent and capable. That is what Jim and I were discussing. You can also have an independent external lab test a sample, if you have any doubts about the mill's lab cert. They are usually correct, but not always. So that would be your call.

The steel mill is supposed to do a PPAP? Right, they won't even take the call from us peons. Let alone do a bunch of paperwork.