SBS - The Best Value in QMS software

TS 16949 Interpretations: 8.2.2.4 Internal Audit Plans

S

Shawn

#1
Hello all,
I have learned a great deal by visiting the forums over the past 3-4 years, but have never posted here. I am now at a loss and would like some opinions.

We recently had our first TS surveillance audit after being certified and recieved a CAR for not having "all process on all shifts" in the internal audit schedule (actually the CAR was just for 3rd shift being left off, but the whole discussion was based on our disagreement of the interpretations and that sparked me to add "all processess on all shifts" to my schedule which doubled it). My interpretation of 8.2.2.4 is that all processes are to be audited (which they were all on the schedule) and all activites and all shifts. Internal auditing is a sampling of the QMS, which in my eyes you would do a sampling on all shifts and not necessarily all processes on all shifts. The processes don't change from one shift to another, so why would I need to audit the same process 3 times within the annual schedule, unless of course there is problems in that area? The interpretations don't outline this, and our auditor said that this was the way that all the auditors have chosen to look at it (all processes on all shifts). I can see his point to a certain extent, but I also believe I could be correct. How can we manage a quality system that meets the TS requirements if they are subject to different interpretations and no "authority" to appeal too (other than contesting the CAR)? I am not frustrated or angry, rather concerned that my best efforts will at some point be washed away by other's interpretations.

Any insight you may have would be helpful. And thank you to everyone for the help and knowledge I have gained from reading your posts over the years.
 
Elsmar Forum Sponsor

Sambasi

Involved - Posts
#2
The shift audit is to ensure that"all processes (and all activities) on all shifts" are carried out in the same way in all shifts.Are they consistent in all the shifts?
Regards,

Sambasi.
 

Howard Atkins

Forum Administrator
Staff member
Admin
#3
Welcome to the Cove as a poster!

Shawn said:
Hello all,

We recently had our first TS surveillance audit after being certified and recieved a CAR for not having "all process on all shifts" in the internal audit schedule (actually the CAR was just for 3rd shift being left off, but the whole discussion was based on our disagreement of the interpretations and that sparked me to add "all processess on all shifts" to my schedule which doubled it). My interpretation of 8.2.2.4 is that all processes are to be audited (which they were all on the schedule) and all activites and all shifts. Internal auditing is a sampling of the QMS, which in my eyes you would do a sampling on all shifts and not necessarily all processes on all shifts. The processes don't change from one shift to another, so why would I need to audit the same process 3 times within the annual schedule, unless of course there is problems in that area? The interpretations don't outline this, and our auditor said that this was the way that all the auditors have chosen to look at it (all processes on all shifts).
We have discussed similar issues in the past
http://elsmar.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=8300

The actual clause says:
Internal audits shall cover all quality management related processes, activities and shifts, and shall be scheduled according to an annual plan.
and not
Shawn said:
all processes on all shifts
as you can see this is not 8.2.2.2 manufacturing processes but QMS processes.
This does not give an answer to your real question
Shawn said:
How can we manage a quality system that meets the TS requirements if they are subject to different interpretations and no "authority" to appeal too (other than contesting the CAR)? I am not frustrated or angry, rather concerned that my best efforts will at some point be washed away by other's interpretations.
but maybe someone else can add to this
 
V

vanputten

#4
[QUOTE: The processes don't change from one shift to another, so why would I need to audit the same process 3 times within the annual schedule, unless of course there is problems in that area? The interpretations don't outline this, and our auditor said that this was the way that all the auditors have chosen to look at it (all processes on all shifts). I can see his point to a certain extent, but I also believe I could be correct. How can we manage a quality system that meets the TS requirements if they are subject to different interpretations and no "authority" to appeal too (other than contesting the CAR)?]


Hello Shawn:

How do you know that process don't change from shift to shift? In my internal auditing experience, I have often found changes in the way things are done from shift to shift.

Did you have any internal audits on 3rd shift? Did you do any sampling on 3rd shift? Was the 3rd shift completely left out of the audit schedule? Maybe you make the claim that you did sample some processes from the 3rd shfit. 8.2.2.4 does say "all quality management related processes, activities and shifts." So what data did you have to make the claim that you did sample some of the qs processes on 3rd shfit?

You could appeal to the Certification Body that employs your auditor or you could submit a complaint to the IAF. The IAF has a formal complaint process. Even if they find that your auditor is correct, you may learn a lot by submitting a complaint.

http://www.iaf.nu/

The IAF is acutally requesting people to submit complaints and/or feedback so they can understand what people are experincing, so they can monitor auditor competency, etc. The IAF wants feedback.

Regards, Dirk
 
S

Shawn

#5
Thanks for your replies, you have given me some things to consider. I am sure that nobody interpretes some of the requirements of the standard in the same way, some of it has to be trial and error to learn. I have added all processes on all shifts to my internal audit schedule, not only to ensure I am meeting requirements but, like Dirk said, to ensure that the processes are not changing with different operators, lead persons, and shifts. Even though the processes are docuemented that does not mean that everyone is following them the same way.

Thanks again,
Shawn
 

Howard Atkins

Forum Administrator
Staff member
Admin
#6
Shawn said:
Thanks for your replies, you have given me some things to consider. I am sure that nobody interpretes some of the requirements of the standard in the same way, some of it has to be trial and error to learn. I have added all processes on all shifts to my internal audit schedule, not only to ensure I am meeting requirements but, like Dirk said, to ensure that the processes are not changing with different operators, lead persons, and shifts. Even though the processes are docuemented that does not mean that everyone is following them the same way.

Thanks again,
Shawn
The real question is what happens at 2 am and this is the reason that it is in the standard

I once heard the excuse from a quality manager,
these were probably made at night
 
B

bethanyfreeland

#7
ISO/TS-16949 section 8.2.2.4 internal audit plans

I have an issue related to 8.2.2.4 and I am surprised that no one has brought this up. Among my management team, we have differing interpretations of ISO/TS-16949 section 8.2.2.4, internal audit plans. It reads:

"Internal audits shall cover all quality management related processes, activities and shifts, and shall be scheduled according to an annual plan."

About half of my team interprets this to mean that in the course of a year, all QMS processes, activities and shifts have to be audited; the other half says that there has to be an annual schedule, and at some point the schedule must cover all QMS processes, activities and shifts, but they do not necessarily have to be covered annually. I can see both views, but lean toward the latter interpretation.

I would be interested in hearing how this community interprets this clause.
 

Helmut Jilling

Auditor / Consultant
#8
bethanyfreeland said:
I have an issue related to 8.2.2.4 and I am surprised that no one has brought this up. Among my management team, we have differing interpretations of ISO/TS-16949 section 8.2.2.4, internal audit plans. It reads:

"Internal audits shall cover all quality management related processes, activities and shifts, and shall be scheduled according to an annual plan."

About half of my team interprets this to mean that in the course of a year, all QMS processes, activities and shifts have to be audited; the other half says that there has to be an annual schedule, and at some point the schedule must cover all QMS processes, activities and shifts, but they do not necessarily have to be covered annually. I can see both views, but lean toward the latter interpretation.

I would be interested in hearing how this community interprets this clause.

Some OE customers add it to their CSR sheets (ie: Chrysler). But the standards do not require it.

The annual "requirement" is however, very commonly selected as an internal requirement. Most companies follow that.

The audit plan must be reviewed and/or updated annually, however.
 
#9
bethanyfreeland said:
I have an issue related to 8.2.2.4 and I am surprised that no one has brought this up. Among my management team, we have differing interpretations of ISO/TS-16949 section 8.2.2.4, internal audit plans. It reads:

"Internal audits shall cover all quality management related processes, activities and shifts, and shall be scheduled according to an annual plan."

About half of my team interprets this to mean that in the course of a year, all QMS processes, activities and shifts have to be audited; the other half says that there has to be an annual schedule, and at some point the schedule must cover all QMS processes, activities and shifts, but they do not necessarily have to be covered annually. I can see both views, but lean toward the latter interpretation.

I would be interested in hearing how this community interprets this clause.
It's been a requirement from some third party auditors that all requirements are audited every year. Indeed, the management review requirement (especially in QS-9000) made it necessary to cover all the 'elements' once a year, which may imply auditing them too.:bonk:

It seems to me that there's a fundamental missunderstanding of the need to have an audit program in the first place, because in my world neither of your teams have it completely correct!:tunnel:

Yes, you need to cover all qms processes etc, and yes, there has to be an annual plan, but not to do 'everything' once a year or that an annual schedule is needed (even if it did cover everything in a year!!):read:

So, what can be done to help deliver value packed audits and keep from being 'written up' for not having a comprehensive annualized schedule?

Base the audits on 'status and importance', don't schedule a whole year's worth at one go (you'll end up changing it and everyone will get confused/annoyed with the number of changes) and involve your management in the scheduling decision. Also, by following a 'process approach' to auditing, every time you do an audit, you can cover about 66.6% of the requirements of the standard:agree1:

Andy
 

Helmut Jilling

Auditor / Consultant
#10
Shawn said:
We recently ... recieved a CAR for not having "all process on all shifts" in the internal audit schedule (actually the CAR was just for 3rd shift being left off, but the whole discussion was based on our disagreement of the interpretations......
Shawn said:
My interpretation of 8.2.2.4 is that all processes are to be audited (which they were all on the schedule) and all activites and all shifts. Internal auditing is a sampling of the QMS, which in my eyes you would do a sampling on all shifts and not necessarily all processes on all shifts. ...
This is not an auditor interpretaion. TS Rules 2nd ed., require it (cl 2.7, Matrix item 2 - Quality Planning, and Annex 6, item 6).

ISO 9001 does not directly mandate it, but ISO 19011 discusses it if I recall.

Shawn said:
...our auditor said that this was the way that all the auditors have chosen to look at it .... How can we manage a quality system that meets the TS requirements if they are subject to different interpretations and no "authority" to appeal too ...
This is not something auditors got together and "chose." Most of us would just as soon not be there at midnight, but it makes sense.

Shawn said:
The processes don't change from one shift to another, so why would I need to audit the same process 3 times within the annual schedule, unless of course there is problems in that area? The interpretations don't outline this, ...
They often do change. But even if they don't, there are still two good reasons. One, the standard requires you to schedule audits based on their complexity and risk, scope, magnitude, (pick a word). Shop floor shift work tends to be the biggest processes in a company, and so deserve the extra audit time derived from doing the offshifts.

Two, the offshift folks work hard, and they deserve the attention of an audit to validate their efforts.
 
Thread starter Similar threads Forum Replies Date
O Release of Sanctioned Interpretations (SIs) related to Rules 5th Edition and Sanctioned Interpretations related to IATF 16949:2016 IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 0
L IATF 16949 Contingency plan requirements / Sanctioned Interpretations? IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 33
P Sanctioned Interpretations - IATF 16949 Cl. 8.3.3.3 Special characteristics IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 3
J TS 16949 Sanctioned Interpretations yet? IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 2
S ISO TS 16949:2002 - Sanctioned interpretations on the new requirements yet? IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 9
T IATF 16949 Recording inspection results IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 2
S IATF 16949 Supplier selection criteria 8.4.1.2 IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 2
D IATF 16949 M&TE Laboratory scope IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 4
M IATF 16949 SI # 10: Integrated self-calibration of measurement equipment- Needs for explanation IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 2
Q ISO 9001/IATF 16949 Audit Finding Question - Document Retention IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 11
J IATF 16949 Calibration/Verification records question ISO 26262 - Road vehicles – Functional safety 5
D Bulk Materials (Greases) and IATF 16949 IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 11
J IATF 16949 Internal Audit question - Auditor's responsibility Internal Auditing 6
S IATF 16949 Internal Audit Example IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 13
B Remote IATF 16949 audit preparation General Auditing Discussions 10
R IATF 16949 Certification for new site with transferred product--what is the impact with CSR and scorecards? IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 4
B IATF 16949 Cert Expire- New certification body IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 5
M IATF 16949 - Audit of Remote Location/Support Site and IT IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 4
O Informational Ford Motor Company Customer Specific Requirements for IATF 16949:2016 - 08 Jan 2021 Customer and Company Specific Requirements 0
B Updated IATF 16949 - Will IATF 16949 get revised when ISO 9001:202X is released? IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 4
S Thoughts on managing ISO 9001, 13485, IATF 16949 and 17025 ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 33
P IATF 16949 requirement - error-proofing in control plan IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 3
R IATF 16949 - Outsourcing of internal audits Internal Auditing 11
eule del ayre Documented Information - Periodic Review of Documents? IATF 16949:2016 / ISO 9001:2015 IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 34
Crimpshrine13 Laboratory Scope - Calibration vs. Test Methods - IATF 16949 IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 3
earl62 What is the best way to control special characteristics in Control plan? Is it Mandatory to have SPC for IATF 16949? IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 12
L IATF 16949 certification costs IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 3
B FCA US Customer Specific IATF 16949- Critical Characteristics 8.6.2 Customer and Company Specific Requirements 0
B IATF 16949 News Six month extension on all valid IATF 16949 certs IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 10
earl62 IATF 16949 Clause 9.1.1.1 - What is the batch conformance to specification method? IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 3
B FCA US IATF 16949 Customer Requirements updates Customer and Company Specific Requirements 3
S Can assembly manufacturing sub-supplier be certified IATF 16949? IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 6
D IATF 16949 Requirement for CMMI in a Global Company Elsmar Cove Forum Suggestions, Complaints, Problems and Bug Reports 0
M Tips on preparing for IATF 16949 Internal Lead Auditor exam Manufacturing and Related Processes 1
A IATF 16949 4.3.1 - Determining the scope of the quality management system - supplemental IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 9
S Definition of "worldwide" in view of IATF 16949 and Product conformity IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 3
R Where does IATF 16949 address Process mapping? IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 3
A Document "Correspondence IATF 16949 vs ISO13485" available? IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 0
H Remote product audits in Coivd-19 - IATF 16949 9.2.2.4 IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 3
S IATF 16949 - Partial traceability of Aftermarket products IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 5
M IATF 16949 8.5.1.3 Verification of job set-ups - Do we need secondary check? IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 7
C Industrial scales and MSA (IATF 16949 requirement 7.1.5.1.1) IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 30
V Generic IATF 16949 Audit Checklist wanted IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 3
M Scope of Combined ISO 9001 and IATF 16949 QMS - Non-automotive customers ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 5
D Postpone IATF 16949 audit due to COVID-19 IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 41
J Does anyone have an excel IATF 16949 Internal Audit checklist I could use? IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 7
T Reaction Plan To Drive suppliers to IATF 16949 registration IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 6
B IATF 16949 - Is a Deviation required for sample components in a prototype build? IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 13
C IATF 16949 - Scope or not? IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 2
L "IATF-Compliant" IATF 16949:2016 certification? What does this mean? IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 13

Similar threads

Top Bottom