TS 16949 - Para. 8.2.2.1 QMS Audit - How are you meeting this requirement?

[vanputten]

From TS 16949, 8.2.2.1 The organizaiton shall audit its quality manangment system to verify compliance with this Technical Specification and any additional quality management system requirements.

Our organization's response to this requirement was to take the IATF TS 16949 checklist and do a multi-day "system" audit. This checklist was obsoleted by the IATF becasue it did not support the Process Appproach. The checklist did support a element / clause approach.

So how are others meeting this system audit requirement? How does one audit the system (inter-related processes) using the proccess approach? Somehow, we need to look at the entire system in regards to inputs, outputs, controls and resources per process, link all of the processes together to get the big picture, and then make a statment that our qms is or is not complaint to TS 16949?

Another idea I had was to include questions in our process audits that relate directly to TS. Generally, our process audits are comprised of questions that are taken dircelty from our internal process specs and not from TS.

Any feedback would be apprecaited.

Thank you, Dirk van Putten

 

[vanputten]

TS 16949, 8.2.2.1 QMS Audit - How are you meeting this requirement?

From TS 16949, 8.2.2.1 The organizaiton shall audit its quality manangment system to verify compliance with this Technical Specification and any additional quality management system requirements.

Our organization's response to this requirement was to take the IATF TS 16949 checklist and do a multi-day "system" audit. This checklist was obsoleted by the IATF becasue it did not support the Process Appproach. The checklist did support a element / clause approach.

So how are others meeting this system audit requirement? How does one audit the system (inter-related processes) using the proccess approach? Somehow, we need to look at the entire system in regards to inputs, outputs, controls and resources per process, link all of the processes together to get the big picture, and then make a statment that our qms is or is not complaint to TS 16949?

Another idea I had was to include questions in our process audits that relate directly to TS. Generally, our process audits are comprised of questions that are taken dircelty from our internal process specs and not from TS.

Any feedback would be apprecaited.

Thank you, Dirk van Putten

 

[Russ]

From TS 16949, 8.2.2.1 The organizaiton shall audit its quality manangment system to verify compliance with this Technical Specification and any additional quality management system requirements.

Our organization's response to this requirement was to take the IATF TS 16949 checklist and do a multi-day "system" audit. This checklist was obsoleted by the IATF becasue it did not support the Process Appproach. The checklist did support a element / clause approach.

So how are others meeting this system audit requirement? How does one audit the system (inter-related processes) using the proccess approach? Somehow, we need to look at the entire system in regards to inputs, outputs, controls and resources per process, link all of the processes together to get the big picture, and then make a statment that our qms is or is not complaint to TS 16949?

Another idea I had was to include questions in our process audits that relate directly to TS. Generally, our process audits are comprised of questions that are taken dircelty from our internal process specs and not from TS.

Any feedback would be apprecaited.

Thank you, Dirk van Putten

We use process audit checklists but only as a tool. I use process maps & a process interaction chart to develop these checklists. It's been working good so far.

Russ

 

[Tom W]

What we have done is through identifying each process (both key processes as well as support processes) we built our schedule on the processes. This way we audit the process or processes that are interacting under a specific process. (If that made any sense?)

By creating a process map and documenting the inputs / outputs / measurables / CA / etc. we can audit just a single process or a combination of several. Hope this helps with some ideas.

We also have what we call a Shalls Matrix - we list out every shall and then cross reference it to the document that it is covered in. This way once a year we can review (desk audit) the documents and the shalls matrix to ensure that we are addressing each shall - then we can evaluate if we are addressing each one effectively based on our business.

 

[Teri - 2011]

Another idea I had was to include questions in our process audits that relate directly to TS. Generally, our process audits are comprised of questions that are taken dircelty from our internal process specs and not from TS.

This is what I did. I use a TS16949 Audit kit, that breaks up the questions to specific requirements of the standard. Then we use our own made up checklist that pertains to our specific outputs/inputs/processes.

 

[Sam]

From TS 16949, 8.2.2.1 The organizaiton shall audit its quality manangment system to verify compliance with this Technical Specification and any additional quality management system requirements.

Our organization's response to this requirement was to take the IATF TS 16949 checklist and do a multi-day "system" audit. This checklist was obsoleted by the IATF becasue it did not support the Process Appproach. The checklist did support a element / clause approach.

So how are others meeting this system audit requirement? How does one audit the system (inter-related processes) using the proccess approach? Somehow, we need to look at the entire system in regards to inputs, outputs, controls and resources per process, link all of the processes together to get the big picture, and then make a statment that our qms is or is not complaint to TS 16949?

Another idea I had was to include questions in our process audits that relate directly to TS. Generally, our process audits are comprised of questions that are taken dircelty from our internal process specs and not from TS.

Any feedback would be apprecaited.

Thank you, Dirk van Putten

The reason for obsoleting the checklist is that it is not compatible with the process approach to auditing. Developing your own checklist with questions is not the anwer; the third party audtior wil not accept this as being compliant.
The process approach asks three basic questions:
Is there an INPUT?,
Is there an ACTIVITY?,
Is there an OUTPUT?.
Each clause of TS2 can be approached with these questions. Compliance can then be determined by the nature of the objective evidence collected.

 

[Teri - 2011]

Actually our auditor did accept our approach. You make the questions/checklist based upon the TS2 requirements, your own requirements (procedures) the input/process/output that has already been established by your system. The idea behind making a "list" or "questions" is so that you can cover everything you want the audit to cover, along with following any leads that may come up in the auditing process.

 

[vanputten]

The 4 replys to my posting make me even more confused. How does checking the inputs, outputs, controls, and resources of a process constitute a system audit? If I audit all of our processes, does this constitute a single system audit?

We look at inputs, outputs, controls, and resources per TS clause and this is a system audit? I thought the whole idea was to get away from a clause by clause approcah? But yet we are requried to know if we meet each and every clause of TS.

I am still confused and look forward to more feedback.

I guess what I am getting at is that I see a discrepancy in the IATF's meesage. Do not approach auditing in a clause by clause fashion but make sure you know you are compliant to each and every clasue?

Sincerley, Dirk

 

[Sam]

The 4 replys to my posting make me even more confused. How does checking the inputs, outputs, controls, and resources of a process constitute a system audit? If I audit all of our processes, does this constitute a single system audit?

We look at inputs, outputs, controls, and resources per TS clause and this is a system audit? I thought the whole idea was to get away from a clause by clause approcah? But yet we are requried to know if we meet each and every clause of TS.

I am still confused and look forward to more feedback.

I guess what I am getting at is that I see a discrepancy in the IATF's meesage. Do not approach auditing in a clause by clause fashion but make sure you know you are compliant to each and every clasue?

Sincerley, Dirk

You are correct, it is confusing. IMO, the first step is to identify your QMS process by establishing your customer oriented processes (COP's). Once these COP's are in place you can audit, initially, to the clauses in the TS. i.e., gap analysis. Future audits of the system will be more closely aligned with the process approach utilizing inputs, activities and outputs.
Also, If you have not participated in an automotive process approach auditing course, I would suggest you do so.

 

[Tom W]

As I stated in my earlier post - we have created a Shalls Matrix that we review annually to ensure that we are covering every shall and where we cover it. Then we can audit the method of covering every shall. This is a desk audit and we audit against the standard and our documentation.

Thus this becomes our system sudit. The idea behind the system audit in TS is to ensure that you address the requirements within TS in your system; not how effectively you address them. That is for the process audits and the product audits.