TS 16949 Process Audit Help - Confused

T

TSInternal

#1
I have been doing internal audits for a tier 1 auto supplier for the last 8 years. During QS9000 we used a checklist of each element. Since TS has deemed that the audit approach be Process Auditing, I have struggled to make my audits less elemental. I am a old dog trying to learn new tricks. We had a outside auditor come in 2009 and blast the using a checklist for audits. Giving us a turtle diagram and "suggeting that this was the way to process audit. Fair enough I was using my checklist. So I pitched the checklist and audited my next year based on his turtle diagram and his auditing style and summery. That year he said I should really use a checklist since I dont audit as frequent.and my Objective evidence was weak at best.:mad:. So I am confused to say the least. Can someone give me some insight into just what the outside auditors are looking for during a "Process Audit"

Thanks in advance
 

Boscoeee

Inactive Registered Visitor
#2
Interesting issue, not a TS guy, but,

I faced a similar situation in adapting to AS 9101 Revision D which dictate the use of process audits in the AS 9100 Revision C world.

As far as using a checklist, I use the check list because nothing tells me that I cannot use them and its use is an indicator that I have covered all of the items required.

As far as Turtle diagrams, they are auseful information tool about each process that you have developed, but I do not really see them as a silver bullet for use in the internal auditing process.

I know this does not answer your question, but I want to share that you are not alone.
 

qusys

Quite Involved in Discussions
#3
I have been doing internal audits for a tier 1 auto supplier for the last 8 years. During QS9000 we used a checklist of each element. Since TS has deemed that the audit approach be Process Auditing, I have struggled to make my audits less elemental. I am a old dog trying to learn new tricks. We had a outside auditor come in 2009 and blast the using a checklist for audits. Giving us a turtle diagram and "suggeting that this was the way to process audit. Fair enough I was using my checklist. So I pitched the checklist and audited my next year based on his turtle diagram and his auditing style and summery. That year he said I should really use a checklist since I dont audit as frequent.and my Objective evidence was weak at best.:mad:. So I am confused to say the least. Can someone give me some insight into just what the outside auditors are looking for during a "Process Audit"

Thanks in advance
Hi,
welcome on forum!
I have found this material on this forum in"post attachement" in the bar putting
process approach as keyword.
Read this material as reference, because it can be useful :
http://elsmar.com/Forums/fileslist....=filename&pageamt=1&criteria=process+approach

My advice is also to attend some training dealing with process approach and ISO TS.
Consider that ISO TS foresees three different type of audit in the internal audit program: product audit, mfg process audit, system audit.

:bigwave:
 
T

TSInternal

#4
Thanks for your replies, I have taken Lead auditor training but I feel like it does little to cover the wide spectrum of Process Audits. I have also taken AIAG core Tools training. Thank you for the link to the files. They will be very helpful :)
 

qusys

Quite Involved in Discussions
#5
Thanks for your replies, I have taken Lead auditor training but I feel like it does little to cover the wide spectrum of Process Audits. I have also taken AIAG core Tools training. Thank you for the link to the files. They will be very helpful :)
Hi TSinternal.
appreciated your thanks.
This forum is very precious to exchange ideas, help and support from all expert Covers.

Here are other material for you that I have found in the attachment, you can refer to have support and advices:

http://elsmar.com/Forums/fileslist....tby=filename&pageamt=1&criteria=process+audit

Besides, in above link there is VDA material that is a process common approach examplem used in automotive in German market. It gives ideas process auditing approach. There are also training for this:

http://elsmar.com/Forums/fileslist.php?mode=allfiles&sortby=filename&pageamt=1&criteria=vda

My advice is to start from your QMS processes to plan internal audits with the sponsorship of top mgmt.
For example, when you audit purchasing processes you may want to also audit incoming quality control to ensure the quality incoming, this a common approach in process approach audit.
When you are auditing manufacturing processes , starting from control plan, you may want to cross audit maintenance activities too, where also checking how spare parts/consumable are stored (warehouse) or qualified and purchased ( procurement process) and tracking in the systems ( records in your system, for example SAP). You may also want to audit the process of wasting ( in case of joint audit with environment agaainst ISO 14001)) as well as safety issue linked ( if you are also auditing jointly with safety vs OHSAS, in brief this is a common process approach way of auditing.
Hope this helps:bigwave:
 

Quality_Steve

Inactive Registered Visitor
#6
I've been going through the same situation with ISO9001. We were doing element audits with a few process audits for what we thought were the main processes. At the GAP analysis and the auditor said we didn't need element audits. If we used these magical turtles and did only process audits, we would cover all the elements. So we gave it a try and it passed but we soon started to see the audits were lacking substance and we weren't hitting all the elements like we should.

Back to the drawing board, I have been breaking down all the elements and checking them against the turtles and made a checklist based on the processes, similar to this one, and I use this to create the audit plan. In the audit plan I get specific about each requirement to be audited and add information on what they should be looking for to satisfy each requirement to hopefully give the auditors the additional direction they need to be more thorough.

In my short experience, I have not found a single tool that is guaranteed to be effective alone; a combination of tools may be the best solution.

And by all means, if someone else can make it easier, help a brother out!:bigwave:
 

AndyN

A problem shared...
Staff member
Super Moderator
#7
I have been doing internal audits for a tier 1 auto supplier for the last 8 years. During QS9000 we used a checklist of each element. Since TS has deemed that the audit approach be Process Auditing, I have struggled to make my audits less elemental. I am a old dog trying to learn new tricks. We had a outside auditor come in 2009 and blast the using a checklist for audits. Giving us a turtle diagram and "suggeting that this was the way to process audit. Fair enough I was using my checklist. So I pitched the checklist and audited my next year based on his turtle diagram and his auditing style and summery. That year he said I should really use a checklist since I dont audit as frequent.and my Objective evidence was weak at best.:mad:. So I am confused to say the least. Can someone give me some insight into just what the outside auditors are looking for during a "Process Audit"

Thanks in advance
How about this? http://www.nqa-usa.com/resources/articles_detail?id=39

I've used this very effectively in a couple of TS companies and even had the CB auditor recommend it to his clients!

More worrying about your approach is your auditor's comments. You might want to consider getting another one...
 
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#8
Hi If you are focussing more on process audit, I would suggest to spend some time in VDA 6.3 process audit. one of the best to use for doing process audit. and it also covers the topics os TS.
Krishna
 
J

JOYLYN ARELLANO

#9
TS 16949 Process and Product Audit Requirement

Hi everybody, I have doubts about what had happened with my existing procedure and checklist for this because during our 1st certification audit with our 3rd Party Auditor ,we had Minor NC for Process and Product Audit with an ineffective method but we're using it for ISO 9001 for almost 13 years. Is ISO 9001 vs.TS 16949 different requirement for Process and Product Audit? To add more info.,I have also separated Internal Audit for System Audit.
Please advise to enlighten my understanding.

And if possible,please provide me sample of Process and Product Audit Procedure/Work Instruction as reference.

Thanks.

Joylyn
 

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