TS 16949 - Supplier Certification - We have one Tier 1 automotive customer

S

stewies

#1
I've been reading through the Cove for quite awhile (thanks for all the great questions and answers!), but I haven't seen this question yet. We are TS 16949 certified. We have one automotive customer (they are Tier I, not us), the rest of our customers do not require us to be certified. Do all of our suppliers have to be certified or just the suppliers affecting our one automotive customer?
 
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Marc

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#2
Good question. I would think that only suppliers affecting your one automotive customer would be required, but I haven't seen this discussed either. On the other hand I would think that you would want a system that addresses all suppliers rather than ending up with 'two systems'.

Folks, what have the auditors been doing in cases like this, and what are your thoughts?
 
T

Totumfrog

#3
Ts 16949

All of your suppliers do not have to be TS. My company has been TS 16949 for three years now. First the 1999 version and most recently upgraded to 2002 version. The auditors that have come here have stated that if your customer requires you to be TS, then by the TS requirement, your vendors must have the goal of acheiving conformity to TS with the first step being registered to ISO (See 7.4.1.2 of 2002 version). Thus, in our case, when our customers require us to be TS (our customers are also Tier 1 to automotive) we must require our vendors to have the goal of conforming to TS with the first step being ISO. If you have a vendor (mom and pop type) that will never be ISO or TS, simply send a letter to your customer (quality and purchasing) stating that you are using a vendor that is not ISO but that you being TS will ensure any product that comes from that vendor meets the customer requirements and then put in your letter that if you don't hear from the customer in 30 days that this is not acceptable then you will assume that it is. Keep the letter for proof to your auditor and increase your inspection for that vendor.
 
T

Teresa1000

#4
Totumfrog said:
If you have a vendor (mom and pop type) that will never be ISO or TS, simply send a letter to your customer (quality and purchasing) stating that you are using a vendor that is not ISO but that you being TS will ensure any product that comes from that vendor meets the customer requirements and then put in your letter that if you don't hear from the customer in 30 days that this is not acceptable then you will assume that it is. Keep the letter for proof to your auditor and increase your inspection for that vendor.
This may solve a problem that I've been struggling with for months. Has this actually worked for you, Totumfrog? No problems/concerns from your auditor?
 
S

SteelWoman

#5
Totum's right and yes it "works" in audits. We are also TS and only have a couple automotive customers, none of them Tier 1. When being examined in an audit they're really only interested in the ones we use to get material for our automotive customers. And yes, in the case of mom and pops we also use the letter/permission from the customer tact successfully.
 
T

Totumfrog

#6
Our auditor is the one who told us how to do it. Also, with the couple of mom and pops shops that I've had to do this with, it's worked everytime. I've never had a customer come back and say no. However, I do have a lot of vendors who are ISO or pursuing TS that I can show to the auditor that we are meeting the requirements of the standard of supplier developement. I would be cautious if you tried this on every customer / vendor just to get around the requirement. The auditors may not like that.
 

Wes Bucey

Quite Involved in Discussions
#7
It is my understanding the top of the automotive supply chain is the ultimate arbiter of whether lower links are acceptable (regarding certification to a Standard or not.) The auditor's responsibility is to determine the auditee has complied with "customer specific" stuff, which includes waivers regarding suppliers lower down the supply chain.

Is there a TS16949 auditor or Registrar representative who disputes that understanding?
 
D

D.Scott

#8
I am not saying this is incorrect but if it is acceptable then it is a reversal of an IASG interpretation made for QS-9000. The interpretation simply excluded a non-reply as acceptable documentation of a customer waiver. There was a lengthy discussion on this at the time and it has, for years, been the interpretations of QS auditors.

Using the logic applied in the other interpretation, it seems unlikely the interpretation for TS16949 would change. After all, a copy of a letter to your customer is only documentation that you wrote it - not that it was actually sent to anybody.

I understand you only have one tier 1 customer and they are the only ones requiring you to be TS however, once you are certified to TS, all your automotive customers are covered under the TS requirements. It has no bearing on whether they require certification. All of your suppliers, supplying your automotive processes, must be a minimum of ISO 9001:2000 with a goal of compliance to TS16949. This would mean the waiver, if valid, would have to be given by all your automotive customers who use the applicable material.

I agree that suppliers outside the automotive portion of the business are not subject to the requirement. As supplier development is one of the "hot items" in 16949, I would be very sure before risking a major non-conformance.

Dave
 

Wes Bucey

Quite Involved in Discussions
#9
I agree you can't just scatter requests for waiver in the sea like oysters spawning. You have to make an effort to get a response, even if only verbal, which you record as to person, title, date, time, etc.
 
S

stewies

#10
Here's what I'm getting at - Customer A (an automotive Tier I) wants us to be TS, so we are. We make sure all the suppliers for any work done for Customer A are at least ISO certified. But for Customers B through Z, who are not automotive (and they really don't care if we are certified or not), can I use a non-certified supplier? And if I can use a non-certified supplier for Customers B through Z, because of TS, would I have to get a waiver, or would it even matter because I wouldn't be audited on those customers?

We are a very small company (15 employees) and we do forgings of aluminum, brass and copper. That's it. No fancy stuff here! We do apply the TS standard "across the board," meaning all customers get treated as though they require TS. But there have been occasions where using a non-certified supplier for Customers B through Z would have been much easier, faster and more cost effective.
 
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