TS 16949 - What I find confusing are the chapters headed ".... supplemental"

[Hermann - 2011]

I was always under the impression that 16949 was an automotive supplement to 9001. I've now actually sat down and read it for the first time (we're happily 9001, QS9000, VDA6 certified with over a year to go).
What I find confusing are the chapters headed ".... supplemental".
e.g.
7.1 Planning
7.1.1 Planning - Supplemental
7.1.2 Acceptance Criteria
If 7.1.1 is supplemental to ISO 9001, what is 7.1.2?
Maybe a peek at somebody's manual might help...........

 

[Roger Eastin]

The last that I heard, Laura M had a quality manual that you could look at. What you say, Laura?

 

[Hermann - 2011]

Perhaps I should try to express myself a little better:
Auditors like to see the manual numbered like the standard.
The supplemental requirement given in 7.5.3.1 for instance can be incorporated into my manual text for 7.5.3. i.e. I don't have a section 7.5.3.1 in the manual. Right?
Now look at 7.1.1: It also has supplemental information but my manual has to address this otherwise 7.1.2 etc are numbered wrongly.
Or am I seeing problems which don't really exist?

 

[Tom W]

Typically auditors like to see the number, but it is not required. Address the issues where you want and in a method that works for you. If you want to stay with the numbering just add the subnumber - 7.5.3.1 - you can still stay on target with the numbering. If the suplemental does not apply to your business stat the supplemental then state that it does not apply. A good auditor should not require you to be exact. They will be able to see that you have addressed each requirement to the level needed for your business.

 

[paulnguyen]

Hi,

I was told by an auditor (during my TS training) that the sub-clauses "outside the box" are the additional requirements for the TS. The boxed requirements are from the ISO.

That's why (the auditor said) if you are registered to TS, you are also registered to ISO.

"MY" auditor also told me the same thing about the numbering. It is not required to follow the ISO/TS numbering system. If you think (he said) it helps you and your QMS, do so.

Regards,

Paul N.

 

[shallowmike]

Suppemetal clauses

Hi,

With regards to the supplemental clauses when auditing, is it a requirement to just audit supplemental part or to include in the audit the whole of the ISO clause. For example clause 4.1.1 would you be expected to audit the whole of 4.1 as well as the supplemental part? This also brings me to the question when carrying out a TS audit do you just audit additional TS requirements and not the ISO clauses unless of course there is a reference made to an ISO clause.

Any advice would be gratefully recieved.

Shallowmike

 

[Bigfoot]

Hi,

With regards to the supplemental clauses when auditing, is it a requirement to just audit supplemental part or to include in the audit the whole of the ISO clause. For example clause 4.1.1 would you be expected to audit the whole of 4.1 as well as the supplemental part? This also brings me to the question when carrying out a TS audit do you just audit additional TS requirements and not the ISO clauses unless of course there is a reference made to an ISO clause.

Any advice would be gratefully recieved.

Shallowmike

IMHO there are three types of audits to be conducted under the TS scheme. A Product Audit - Verifying that the product meets it's dimensional / performance characteristics, A Manufacturing Process Audit - Verifying the Manufacturing Process against it's planned or stated controls, and a Systems Audit - Verifying the Quality Management System to it's own stated Objectives & Goals. To audit section 4.1.1 you would be performing a Systems Audit to verify the effectiveness of the QMS in compliance to TS. Section 4.1.1 doesn't stand alone as a requirement without the body of text contained in clause 4.1 making it is necessary to evaluate the entire subject matter contained in the body of clause 4.1. Another example to look at may be under 7.2.2 Review of Requirements related to the product. The boxed text contains the requirements, and 7.2.2.1 - Supplemental states " Waiving the requirement stated in 7.2.2 for a formal review (see note) shall require customer authorization." Without the body of text in 7.2.2 the supplemental requirement is meaningless. To audit these areas you have to audit the main clause as well as the supplemental requirements. A reminder to be cautious "auditing the clause" as it can promote isolation from the overall system as a process.

 

[vanputten]

Check out page ii of TS 16949:2002 for info on sub-clauses "outside the box" are the additional requirements from TS 16949. The boxed requirements are from ISO 9001:2000. Page vii has some more related info.

I recommend to everyone that uses TS 16949 to read every word of the entire standard; every page, all of it.

Organize your documentation any way that is effective and efficient. Your choice.

Regards, Dirk

 

[bpritts]

As Paul N. and Dirk point out, you just need to understand how the TS came about. First there was ISO 9001:2000; then, the automotive folk added their
specific items. As mentioned, the text in the box is the unchanged 9001:2000;
everything else is an automotive addition.

So the "supplemental" means, supplementing ISO 9001:2000. All of the text is required for TS 16949 registration. Sometimes these are entirely new requirements; other times they are interpretations of the existing requirements. They are all most definitely required!!!

While it has been true in the past that auditors have found it convenient to have your documentation numbered in concert with the standard, I would caution you that the philosophy of the "process approach" would suggest that you should structure your documentation to logically reflect your company's business processes, not the standard. If you want to make your
auditor's job easier, prepare a cross-reference to show how you meet each clause of the standard. There is a lot of discussion on this on earlier
TS 16949 threads. It can be a bit confusing, but the key point is that you
should structure your system based on your business-- not the generic
standard.

Best regards,

Brad

 

[shallowmike]

TS Supplemental Clauses

Thanks Guys,

So just to clarify if I was to start an audit on section 7 Product Realization, would I just audit TS additional clauses or include the ISO section. My thinking is that ISO would be covered under its own auditable functions and is in place. I'm also still unsure about the process approach is this mandatory,would anyone have an example for section 7?

Thanks again, think I need a round of golf to chill out!

shallowmike