TS Supplier wants ?3000 to do APQP!

Stuart Andrews

Involved - Posts
#1
TS Supplier wants £3000 to do APQP!

I have a supplier who is TS 16949 accredited.

Recently we've accepted his quote for business and nearly completed the design stage, which he's bought into. I've come on late with the SQE (STA) support due to my employer not having my resource at the earliest convenience.

Anyway I've gone into the supplier to assist with maturing the part and their process and I've asked them to do APQP for this part and they've told me we'll have to add £3000 (about $30million lol) to the quote if they ave to do APQP.

I thought having TS meant it was a mandatory requirement for them to do APQP. I'm use to working with QS-9000 and will read the TS std within a few weeks to increase my knowledge, but in the interim I would like your thoughts on this.

Anyone?
 
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#2
APQP at what price

7.3.6.3 states; "The organization shall conform to a product and manufacturing process approval procedure recognized by the customer". (emphasis mine)

The manufacturing process part could be pointing to APQP, rather than just PPAP. However, it makes little difference. If an organization’s customer requires a 5-phase APQP, then it is required. Same applies with PPAP. What TS doesn’t state is that the organization must perform this at their expense! You can charge your customer all you want for the APQP or PPAP process! The question is; will they pay?

As I see it you have three choices. One is the pay the money. The second is to find another supplier, and the third is to drop the requirement. If the supplier is a “mandated” supplier, you might have to get your customer involved.

Hope that helps.
 
S
#4
db said,
"As I see it you have three choices. One is the pay the money. The second is to find another supplier, and the third is to drop the requirement. If the supplier is a “mandated” supplier, you might have to get your customer involved."

I agree. You can not make your supplier responsible for an inadequately prepared RFQ.
 

Stuart Andrews

Involved - Posts
#5
Sam said:
I agree. You can not make your supplier responsible for an inadequately prepared RFQ.
I can agree somewhat with db's comments, but I don't see how a supplier can blame our RFQ that they submitted a quote against as a reason
a) Not to perform some sort of APQP to mature their processes and products correctly, as scrap costs them money as well as us.
and
b) To decide to charge the customer for it, only after it I have pointed it out to them that they need to have performed it to validate their processes are capable etc (in accordance with the requirements of TS 16949 that they signed up to).

If the supplier doesn't perform some sort of APQP how can I as a customer be assured that I am going to receive a product that meets all of my requirements and provides evidence of adequate manufacturing capability. And not just as a first-off declaration on a one page PSW?
 
S
#6
Sorry Stuart I missed that first line that states "I have a supplier who is TS 16949 accredited. "
I think your supplier may be playing a word game or there is some misunderstanding on both sides as to what constitutes palnning.
Those certified to TS2 are required to perform "planning of product realization". Refer to the notes inside and the note outside of the box in 7.1. Each note describes a different method for planning. Remember "NOTES" within the specification are for guidance and clarification of the requirements only. Pay particular attention to the last sentence of 7.1. (Excluding the notes)
 

Paul Simpson

Trusted Information Resource
#7
Just another idea

Hi Stuart,

I can only sympathise. Certainly as part of your Q System development you need to have a word with the people that put the RFQ together but in the short term you may have some joy if you go back to your current supplier and ask them to supply you with evidence of their quality planning process and ask for copies of reports that demonstrate the planning process required under TS (and ISO 9001.2000) is taking place.

They may again come back for cash for this service but you are entitled to ask for it as the company "sells" itself on ISO TS registration and hence has to provide evidence that it carries out the processes it claims to do.

If all else fails complain to their certification body and ask them to investigate and report back to you.
 
C

Commander

#8
it seems to be a missunderstanding here. Being certified against any system does not automatically says that you have to do everything for the customer at no cost at all. Being certified means that you have the ability to performe the steps in the standards not that they are free of charge. It is wrong to think that everything is costless. When you choose a supplier you choose him for 2 things: his ability to performe according to the standard and the price.
If he is certified you expect him to do the APQP and PPAP, and that is correct and you should also expect that. From now it is his responsibility to tell you what the price is. I do not think you should change supplier, because if you do you might find one that will do it for free but not correct (just rush through it). If he says it costs then it propably does so.
 
B

Bill Ryan - 2007

#9
I don't expect my suppliers to follow the APQP manual, per se, if they have an acceptable means of "proving" to me that they have done a thorough job of "protecting" my company. Typically, I (or a fellow "SQE") will work fairly closely with a supplier taking on a new product at the outset and begin backing off as they prove they are capable of meeting our expectations. Communication is the key (as always!!) and the more communication "up front" the better.

All that being said, I fully expect a supplier with the QS or TS banner to have a system in place for "product realization" and I fully expect them to have that system incorporated into the piece price when they quote a part for an automotive application. If they come back "after the fact" and try to tell me it will cost to do something that should be being done anyway, they would not remain a supplier for any longer than it would take to find another. I know that sounds hardline but that's the way it works with us.

One other option is the punitive one the B3 (and some Tier 1s)use - as soon as they ship you one defective part, put them in "CSII" (which, of course, doesn't take care of much other than improving a Detection method, in some/most cases).

Bill
 

Paul Simpson

Trusted Information Resource
#10
He who pays the piper!

I can understand the viewpoint of Commander. Doesn't mean I agree though. I much more follow Bill's point of view. The systems are there, if they weren't then the company wouldn't have ISO TS or QS or even ISO 9001.2000. The point is should you have to pay $3000 to see evidence of it? I think not. There may be a cost in copying the documents but $3k?

It sounds like someone isn't too happy with the contract they signed up to!

On a more general point, if I have a supplier who is contributing significantly to my APQP activity I would want some confidence that they are doing the work, not to find out when it's too late that they aren't going to deliver. That is what APQP reporting is all about - project management!
 
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