TS16949 Audit in Progress - 5.6.2 (b) ?Customer Feedback? not in Management Review

[howste]

Re: TS16949 Audit in Progress - 5.6.2 (b) “Customer Feedback” not in Management Revie

I've conducted many 3rd party TS 16949 audits, and have never had an audit where the company did not receive scorecards from at least some of their automotive customers. Having said that, I also realize that it's the customer's choice whether they will give their suppliers scorecards or not. TS 16949 certainly does not require them, and I'm not surprised to hear that some companies don't receive any. If that's the case, there is certainly not a nonconformity.

Many automotive companies, especially smaller ones in lower tiers, don't provide scorecards. If I came to your company and found that there were none, I would take the following approach:

1) Check any customer specific requirements documents (CSRs) for mention of scorecards. Actually I get the CSRs in advance of the audit, so I should already know before the audit if they are mentioned.

2) If there are customers that I know do give out scorecards to their suppliers (even if they are not mentioned in the CSRs), I request that they contact the customer and confirm if a scorecard is available or not. If a scorecard exists, but has been "lost in the shuffle" I would be doing the customer a disservice by not following up.

If the customer says that they do send a scorecard, or say that it's available electronically and the supplier has been told how to retrieve them, then we have a problem. Further investigation would be needed, but a nonconformity is usually justified in this case. If the customer says that they don't send scorecards to this particular supplier (I've seen it happen), then we move on.

 

[dbzman]

Re: TS16949 Audit in Progress - 5.6.2 (b) “Customer Feedback” not in Management Revie

I've conducted many 3rd party TS 16949 audits, and have never had an audit where the company did not receive scorecards from at least some of their automotive customers. Having said that, I also realize that it's the customer's choice whether they will give their suppliers scorecards or not. TS 16949 certainly does not require them, and I'm not surprised to hear that some companies don't receive any. If that's the case, there is certainly not a nonconformity.

Many automotive companies, especially smaller ones in lower tiers, don't provide scorecards. If I came to your company and found that there were none, I would take the following approach:

1) Check any customer specific requirements documents (CSRs) for mention of scorecards. Actually I get the CSRs in advance of the audit, so I should already know before the audit if they are mentioned.

2) If there are customers that I know do give out scorecards to their suppliers (even if they are not mentioned in the CSRs), I request that they contact the customer and confirm if a scorecard is available or not. If a scorecard exists, but has been "lost in the shuffle" I would be doing the customer a disservice by not following up.

If the customer says that they do send a scorecard, or say that it's available electronically and the supplier has been told how to retrieve them, then we have a problem. Further investigation would be needed, but a nonconformity is usually justified in this case. If the customer says that they don't send scorecards to this particular supplier (I've seen it happen), then we move on.

Exactly!

We only have a few automotive customers and they have not notified, nor sent us score cards. We have always used our sales force to interview the customer for this info. I believe that it is a good Opportunity for Improvement but not a minor finding.

The standard does not mention score cards just “customer feedback” and the media is a discussion and decision between the customer and us. The auditor can look for evidence that customer feedback exists or does not, but cannot dictate what form it takes.

Thanks for the input!

 

[Stijloor]

Re: TS16949 Audit in Progress - 5.6.2 (b) “Customer Feedback” not in Management Revie

Exactly!

We only have a few automotive customers and they have not notified, nor sent us score cards. We have always used our sales force to interview the customer for this info. I believe that it is a good Opportunity for Improvement but not a minor finding.

The standard does not mention score cards just “customer feedback” and the media is a discussion and decision between the customer and us. The auditor can look for evidence that customer feedback exists or does not, but cannot dictate what form it takes.

Thanks for the input!

Just curious; what did the auditor say?

Stijloor.

 

[dbzman]

Re: TS16949 Audit in Progress - 5.6.2 (b) “Customer Feedback” not in Management Revie

We are still going through the audit and should finish tomorrow.
He is going to write it up as a minor and we will contest it with the registrar.

This has been a different type of audit from our previous audits, probably because there is an IAOB auditor in to audit our registrar auditor.

 

[Stijloor]

Re: TS16949 Audit in Progress - 5.6.2 (b) “Customer Feedback” not in Management Revie

We are still going through the audit and should finish tomorrow.
He is going to write it up as a minor and we will contest it with the registrar.

This has been a different type of audit from our previous audits, probably because there is an IAOB auditor in to audit our registrar auditor.

Aha! A witness audit! That tends to bring out "the other side" of an auditor.

State your case, don't give up, and do not accept this as a valid nonconformity. A great case for a witness audit.

Stijloor.

 

[AndyN]

Re: TS16949 Audit in Progress - 5.6.2 (b) “Customer Feedback” not in Management Revie

Good for you, James.

Can you, without it becoming too heated, refuse to sign it (don't wait until the closing meeting) and let the CB auditor know that you will be escalating it? He may 'back down' some. It shouldn't sound like a threat, but if they know you will be taking it higher and don't accept the finding, then it might help them see the error of their ways.

It will be interesting to read the NC, since there is no requirement for a score card which can be referenced!

 

[howste]

Re: TS16949 Audit in Progress - 5.6.2 (b) “Customer Feedback” not in Management Revie

We are still going through the audit and should finish tomorrow.
He is going to write it up as a minor and we will contest it with the registrar.

This has been a different type of audit from our previous audits, probably because there is an IAOB auditor in to audit our registrar auditor.

Definitely let the auditor know that you will be contesting it. Generally signing the nonconformity is not the same as accepting that it is a nonconformity, but it's just acknowledging that you've received it. I'd read the form though, just to be sure...


Is the witness auditor named Karen? I've had her the last two times I've been witnessed by the IAOB.

 

[dbzman]

Re: TS16949 Audit in Progress - 5.6.2 (b) “Customer Feedback” not in Management Revie

Definitely let the auditor know that you will be contesting it. Generally signing the nonconformity is not the same as accepting that it is a nonconformity, but it's just acknowledging that you've received it. I'd read the form though, just to be sure...


Is the witness auditor named Karen? I've had her the last two times I've been witnessed by the IAOB.

The witness auditor was named Morgan.

I told the auditor that I would be contesting and got the information and contact to do so. I will be gathering the data to support my reasoning in the next few days.

I will post the results after I get them.

Can we get a copy of the witness audit? I failed to ask this before Morgan left.

Thanks!

 

[howste]

Re: TS16949 Audit in Progress - 5.6.2 (b) “Customer Feedback” not in Management Revie

Can we get a copy of the witness audit? I failed to ask this before Morgan left.

Thanks!

I doubt it. The witness audit results are maintained as confidential between the CB and the IAOB/IATF. If there were nonconformities found in the witness audit, the CB will be required to take corrective action though...

 

[dbzman]

Re: TS16949 Audit in Progress - 5.6.2 (b) “Customer Feedback” not in Management Revie

Well the appeal came back and my reasoning was rejected. There reason for the rejection was that the customer reports could be accessed on the customer website so we should have gotten them ourselves. I kind of agree with this reasoning; with reservations.

I do think that it is a good idea to get the reports (even though we gather the data in other in other ways. Since it is one of the “voices” of the customer we should look at this information. However, I do not belive that it is a violation of TS 16949 that we did not have them in the first place.
Oh well, I will have to address this somehow.
I was thinking of just getting the reports now and then requesting that the customer send them to us monthly. It will be an exercise in getting the customer(s) to do this consistently.

Thanks for all of the replies.