Turtle diagram or process interaction chart - Making it easier for an auditor

#11
Thank you for your feedback, Coury. His complaint was he needed to see inputs and outputs on a map or diagram to allow him to better understand the processes for the audit. It was the same auditor for the 2018 certification audit. I have not seen any remarks in the/his 2018 report suggesting the company's process interaction chart is unsuitable.
 
#12
Thank you for your feedback, Coury. His complaint was he needed to see inputs and outputs on a map or diagram to allow him to better understand the processes for the audit. It was the same auditor for the 2018 certification audit. I have not seen any remarks in the/his 2018 report suggesting the company's process interaction chart is unsuitable.
The auditor isn't competent, in that case. I wouldn't pay for an incompetent auditor. Sadly, they are still out there in the 21st century.
 
#13
My question would be:

Where are the requirements for a "Turtle Diagram" to define the interaction of the processes of the Quality Management System? I don't see it as a requirement in ISO9001:2015, but maybe I am missing something here. The NC in my opinion, carry's no weight in my book.
Maybe I'm missing something, too. Where is the requirement for any type of IOP chart? It might be the easiest approach, but it could be described other ways, like within each clause of a quality manual (if you use one).
 
#14
Where are the requirements for a "Turtle Diagram" to define the interaction of the processes of the Quality Management System?
Good point! In actual fact, a Turtle doesn't meet this requirement. All it does is depict a single process and provides "buckets" to put other stuff which maybe is associated with the controls of that process. Trouble is - and no-one seems to have identified this - these "buckets" don't indicate any sequence associated with the process! As a result, people who use them, exclusively, to document a process and then attempt to audit it, miss out some vitally important points, which are critical to determining if the process is effective.

Since the turtle doesn't do that, unless it's in the hands of a very competent auditor, it's pretty much useless...
 
#15
Good point! In actual fact, a Turtle doesn't meet this requirement. All it does is depict a single process and provides "buckets" to put other stuff which maybe is associated with the controls of that process. Trouble is - and no-one seems to have identified this - these "buckets" don't indicate any sequence associated with the process! As a result, people who use them, exclusively, to document a process and then attempt to audit it, miss out some vitally important points, which are critical to determining if the process is effective.

Since the turtle doesn't do that, unless it's in the hands of a very competent auditor, it's pretty much useless...
Actually, we modified our turtles to show the sequence and interactions. They have arrows and numbers to link the processes together. With them you can make a "virtual process map" on the conference room table.
 
#17
While I agree with Andy that this finding is BS, we use the turtle diagrams. But it isn't a full QMS map. We have a turtle for each process, which makes up the map. In fact, we never had a full qms process map until some craphead auditor issued a "finding." Our turtles where connected with arrows, just like the boxes on a process map. If you wanted a map, you could lay the turtles on the conference room table. Auditor didn't see it though. He's no longer welcome.
My ISO consultant made us a QMS map and also the turtle diagram. Do we need both actually?
 

Randy

Super Moderator
#18
I can't believe I missed this Thread....Tell that stinking auditor that it doesn't matter what he LIKES OR WANTS!

Andy and the others are correct....Lookie here, I'm an auditor, that's all I do, audit and for 100-150 days a year for a CB, just audit and I've been doing it about 17-18 years or so and there's something I've never, ever said and that's "I want or I like". It absolutely and totally matters not one iota what he wants you to do or would like you to do....Show me anywhere in 9001 where it says you have to have a map, turtle, flow chart or anything else documented like that.

There's a difference between should you have something that shows your stuff? Yeah sure, but is it an absolute? Nope. And the auditor can't make it so, especially if he's already blown it off.
 
#20
Absolutely agree with Randy (and I can't believe I missed this thread either). I have also been auditing for a loooooooong time (almost 30 years) and one of the first lessons I learned was that it doesn't matter what -=I=- (the auditor) think about how things 'should be'. If it's not in the standard, then it's NOT a requirements. At most I can make it as an OFI, but thats the limit.
 

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