Two AS9102 Applicability and Interpretation Questions

Q

QStrategy

#1
Issue 1: AS 9102 Applicability: Purchase Order invokes AS9102 FAI requirements when requesting delivery of a part whose design characteristics are controlled by the vendor who is also the design authority.

The parts specified in the Purchase Order are significant elements of a complex electronic system whose design characteristics are controlled by the vendor who is the manufacturer and design authority. The parts are not modified in any way to satisfy customer specified requirements. The only customer specified technical requirement is the vendor part number.

AS9102, ?Aerospace First Article Inspection Requirement? paragraph 4, ?APPLICABILITY? states; ?
This Aerospace Standard applies to assemblies sub-assemblies, and detail parts including castings and forgings. This Standard applies to organizations that are responsible for producing the design characteristics of the product. The Organization shall flow down the requirements of this Standard to Suppliers who produce Design Characteristics.

This Standard does not apply to procured Standard Catalog Hardware or Deliverable Software.

If I understand this paragraph correctly; - Organizations that are responsible for producing the design characteristics of the product are the Design Authority and are responsible for the configuration management control of the engineering drawings that specify product design characteristics. Suppliers that produce Design Characteristics are known as Manufacturers. Many vendors are both the design authority and manufacturer for their products.

I believe FAI as envisioned by AS9102 applies when the Design Authority is the buyer and a separate entity is the manufacturing vendor and when the contract between them is governed by a drawing or specification controlled by the buying Design Authority. If the buying organization is not the entity controlling the product specification FAI should not be invoked.
See related post by Jeff Frost which states in part ... " It (FAI) is based on their(Customer) , not your (Vendor), drawing requirements." ... (Was not permitted to provide link to Elsmar posting.)

Is my interpretation correct?

Issue 2: AS 9102 STANDARD CATALOG HARDWARE interpretetion.

AS9102 does not apply to Standard Catalog Hardware or Deliverable Software.

AS9102 narrowly defines STANDARD CATALOG HARDWARE as: A part or material that conforms to an established industry or national authority published specification, having all characteristics identified by text description, National/Military Standard Drawing, or catalog item.
9102 Rev A, ?Aerospace First Article Inspection Requirement (FAI) Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ's)? (not permitted to post SAI FAQ link) provides a broader interpretation

C2. Question:
How is standard Catalog Hardware defined?
C2. Response:
Any item purchased from a catalog available to the public is considered Standard Catalog Hardware. 9102 defines STANDARD CATALOG HARDWARE as: A part or material that conforms to an established industry or national authority published specification, having all characteristics identified by text description, National/Military Standard Drawing, or catalog item.

The part is controlled by the vendor part number and as the design authority and manufacturer considered a standard part, however the part is subject to export controls and not available to the general public.
Is the part STANDARD CATALOG HARDWARE within the meaning of AS9102?
 
Elsmar Forum Sponsor

Big Jim

Super Moderator
#2
Issue 1: AS 9102 Applicability: Purchase Order invokes AS9102 FAI requirements when requesting delivery of a part whose design characteristics are controlled by the vendor who is also the design authority.

The parts specified in the Purchase Order are significant elements of a complex electronic system whose design characteristics are controlled by the vendor who is the manufacturer and design authority. The parts are not modified in any way to satisfy customer specified requirements. The only customer specified technical requirement is the vendor part number.

AS9102, ?Aerospace First Article Inspection Requirement? paragraph 4, ?APPLICABILITY? states; ?
This Aerospace Standard applies to assemblies sub-assemblies, and detail parts including castings and forgings. This Standard applies to organizations that are responsible for producing the design characteristics of the product. The Organization shall flow down the requirements of this Standard to Suppliers who produce Design Characteristics.

This Standard does not apply to procured Standard Catalog Hardware or Deliverable Software.

If I understand this paragraph correctly; - Organizations that are responsible for producing the design characteristics of the product are the Design Authority and are responsible for the configuration management control of the engineering drawings that specify product design characteristics. Suppliers that produce Design Characteristics are known as Manufacturers. Many vendors are both the design authority and manufacturer for their products.

I believe FAI as envisioned by AS9102 applies when the Design Authority is the buyer and a separate entity is the manufacturing vendor and when the contract between them is governed by a drawing or specification controlled by the buying Design Authority. If the buying organization is not the entity controlling the product specification FAI should not be invoked.
See related post by Jeff Frost which states in part ... " It (FAI) is based on their(Customer) , not your (Vendor), drawing requirements." ... (Was not permitted to provide link to Elsmar posting.)

Is my interpretation correct?

Issue 2: AS 9102 STANDARD CATALOG HARDWARE interpretetion.

AS9102 does not apply to Standard Catalog Hardware or Deliverable Software.

AS9102 narrowly defines STANDARD CATALOG HARDWARE as: A part or material that conforms to an established industry or national authority published specification, having all characteristics identified by text description, National/Military Standard Drawing, or catalog item.
9102 Rev A, ?Aerospace First Article Inspection Requirement (FAI) Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ's)? (not permitted to post SAI FAQ link) provides a broader interpretation

C2. Question:
How is standard Catalog Hardware defined?
C2. Response:
Any item purchased from a catalog available to the public is considered Standard Catalog Hardware. 9102 defines STANDARD CATALOG HARDWARE as: A part or material that conforms to an established industry or national authority published specification, having all characteristics identified by text description, National/Military Standard Drawing, or catalog item.

The part is controlled by the vendor part number and as the design authority and manufacturer considered a standard part, however the part is subject to export controls and not available to the general public.
Is the part STANDARD CATALOG HARDWARE within the meaning of AS9102?
I'll comment on item 1 and leave item 2 for others.

I think you may be missing something on design authority. Suppliers are commissioned to make parts specified by customers. The design authority is usually the customer, but it can be a third party. The act of manufacturing a part by the supplier does not make the supplier a design authority. It is possible for a supplier to be a design authority if they were commissioned to design the part as well as manufacture the part. That does not seem to be nearly as common as the customer being the design authority.
 
Q

QStrategy

#3
To clarify the manufacturer is the design authority and vendor. The firm designed, qualified, manufactures and sells the system. The PO specifies only the design authoritiy's part number, no modifications. No third party is involved.
 
A

andygr

#4
For item #1
?Issue 1: AS 9102 Applicability: Purchase Order invokes AS9102 FAI requirements when requesting delivery of a part whose design characteristics are controlled by the vendor who is also the design authority.?

Who is issuing the PO? If it is your organization then the supplier does the AS9102 FAI to the design requirements that you identify on the PO issue to them. This is the key part, what of the design are you controlling?
For example
If you just order to the suppliers PN on your PO (no revision level no restriction only their PN as shown on their catalog, web page or such) then I would say that you are not looking to control the design to any extent and the only data they would need to send to you for the FAI you would be performing is a copy of the their certificate of conformance to your PO.
Now if you are ordering their part # where you restrict changes in any way then you are defining control over the design. At the very least they would have to perform and supply a FAI to the data you received from them and are looking to control by way of flow down on the PO that you issued.

For item #2
?however the part is subject to export controls and not available to the general public?

Very interesting observation to how ITAR/EAR comes into play in the pure definition. In my opinion this was never the intent since the part ordered with the ITAR/EAR restriction could not be received let alone the design data reviewed in the situation you allude to based on the personnel restriction so it would become a mute point. The applicable part of the standard is the statement ?Any item purchased from a catalog available to the public is considered Standard Catalog Hardware?. When you legally order the part with in the restrictions of ITAR/EAR and receive it the part would be considered a catalog item that you received.
:2cents:
 

JAltmann

Quite Involved in Discussions
#5
In regards to item #1, yes you can be design authority and the manufacturer, but being design authority does not absolve you from performing the FAIR. If simply means you control the design engineering responsibilities.

The FAIR process is to make sure the manufacturer understands the requirements and has created the parts to those requirements.

If the design or manufacturing process changes you are still required to submit a delta or possible full FAIR in reponse to those changes.
 

dsanabria

Quite Involved in Discussions
#6
You are overthinking this process and it will get you in a loop that will land you at Elsmar just to see if anyone will bring you out.

CASE # 1 & 2 ... Follow the PO.


If the customer wants a FAIR base on AS9102 then give them Form 1, 2 & 3. (Period)

To your question on COTS - simple ... Place them in form 2

Let me know if you need additional info... but remeber is what the customer wants. In essence, they are looking for you to provide an item that meets the requirements of the PO and print.
 
Thread starter Similar threads Forum Replies Date
D Partial FAI - AS9102 - One single drawing has 10 part numbers AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 5
M AS9102 FAI Report formats - Boxes in form 1, 2, 3 of AS9102 AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 4
P AS9102 Form 3 Dimension Results Inspection, Prints (Drawings), Testing, Sampling and Related Topics 1
B Documenting hardware on Form 2 of AS9102 AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 5
D AS9102 - Assembly FAI for Use As Is or Repaired Parts AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 6
M Conformal Coating & AS9102 - Is conformal coating material a COTS part AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 8
B AS9102 COTS Form 1 vs. 2 AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 5
A AS9102 Delta FAI Require after Rework stock item from stock AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 1
B AS9102 - Completing Partial FAI's for Baseline Part Numbers AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 1
E AS9102 FAI - What makes a COTS modified? (PCB assemblies) AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 11
B AS9102 FAI & Lower Level Drawings - How should we perform the FAI? AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 1
P AS9102 full FAl or a partial FAI after production inactivity period AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 3
B AS9102 Supplier Flow Down Method AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 7
L AS9102 Form 1 Section 13 Detail or Assembly Question AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 2
M FAI AS9102 - What does a First Article Inspection cover? AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 11
W FAIR to AS9102 additional documentation Document Control Systems, Procedures, Forms and Templates 5
O AS9102 FAI report Forms 1-3 Document Control Systems, Procedures, Forms and Templates 6
R AS9102 - Are FAIs against a Customer Red-Lined Drawings Allowed? AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 1
J FAI per AS9102 affecting Fit, Form, Function AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 6
J AS9102 - What needs to be Bubbled on a Contract or Purchase Order AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 4
C AS9102 Form 2 Information - Special Processes - Plating AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 2
R AS9102 FAI with No Drawings Supplied AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 1
S AS9102 - Clarification - PO asking for an Assembly at Rev B (Print at Rev C) AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 3
M AS9102 Training - Seeking third party agency that provides online AS9102 training AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 1
C AS9102 FAIR Form 1 Content Requirements AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 3
APHX02 AS9102 FAI Requirements that pertain to a Dimension 'delta' AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 3
S Qualification Builds & Process Changes (AS9102 - First Article Inspection) AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 1
R Accounting for Alternate Parts in AS9102 FAIs for Assemblies AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 3
S When to switch from a Partial AS9102 back to a Full AS9102 AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 6
S AS9102 Aerospace First Article Requirements AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 6
R When is a new AS9102 report required for Outsourced Processing? AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 1
B New AS9102 Rev B--CA vs UAI--purist vs. pragmatic AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 2
M AS9102 Form #3 modification AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 5
G Is it mandatory to record all processes in form 2 of AS9102 FAI report AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 4
Q FAI IAW AS9102 - First Article Inspection Documentation Question AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 20
D AS9102 B (FAI - First Article Inspection) is Released - October 2014 AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 12
A AS9102 First Article Inspection and NC Parts - New FAI? AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 5
G AS9102 Design Supplier Part Number vs. Customer Part Number AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 2
WCHorn AS9102 Paragraph 5.3-5 - Lapse in Production - FAI Requirements AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 9
C Customer Documentation Errors when completing an AS9102 FAIR AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 5
W AS9102 Requirements - What information from the PO should be included in the FAIR? AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 1
S AS9102 Interpretation on Form 2 field 6 - Specification AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 3
R Does anyone know when AS9102 Rev B will be released? AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 2
Q AS9102 Handwritten Revisions on Ballooned Drawing AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 20
S AS9102 FAI requirements - Inspecting with fixtures, templates AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 2
T AS9102 FAIR - Customer Drawing Revision Change AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 3
K AS9102 Field 19 Signature Requirement AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 9
T Is IAQG planning an update of AS9102? Revision B of AS9102? AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 4
S AS9102 Parts with Machining Allowances for the Customer AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 4
H Do we need all three AS9102 forms if we manufacture only Piece Parts? AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 6

Similar threads

Top Bottom