Use of ISO Logos if company is not certified by an accredited certification body

[Jen Kirley]

Re: Use of ISO Logos if company is not certified by an accredited notified body

Big Jim and PaulJSmith,

This style of logo is being used by one of our Suppliers (of services, not product). We steer clear of using logos of any sort, other than our own of course.

This Supplier has an ISO 9001 Registered certificate from a non-accredited body that has been the subject of a couple of threads in the cove. My concern is that the "certification body" that has awarded this certificate may have hoodwinked the Supplier into believing that they are indeed certified by an accredited body, as they have stated on their 'Supplier Evaluation Form' that their management system has been audited by a regulatory body. During my investigation into the situation I stumbled upon the use of the aforementioned logo.

I was looking for some backup from the Cove before I delivered the bad news.

Jo

You have my support. It is a sad thing if your supplier has not meant to be declared certified by an unaccredited registrar. I would use care in how I described it though. If the registrar is claiming to be accredited it may be enough to point out that it is not listed on UKAS or other relevant source.

 

[Helmut Jilling]

Re: Use of ISO Logos if company is not certified by an accredited notified body

You have my support. It is a sad thing if your supplier has not meant to be declared certified by an unaccredited registrar. I would use care in how I described it though. If the registrar is claiming to be accredited it may be enough to point out that it is not listed on UKAS or other relevant source.

It is important that you report this to your own CB. This is fraudulent behavior on the part of the offending CB and should be handled through official channels. In the meantime, yes, you should also inform your supplier. But, I would see what your CB says first to be sure.

 

[Helmut Jilling]

Re: Use of ISO Logos if company is not certified by an accredited notified body

Why is it dishonest? Why are they lying? - a strong word to use in this context.

They say they are registered to ISO 9001 and as far as we know, they are. The fact that it is by non-UKAS/ANAB accredited certification body is a different question - as in "what is the difference between accredited and non-accredited certification?"

Jo, why not go and do an audit on them yourselves?, I'll come with you if you like, that way you can make up your own mind as to whether they are a company you want to work with or not, based on their performance rather than a logo.

Why is it dishonest? If I say I have a diploma from Harvard, when in fact I have a diploma from an online night school which puts Harvard's logo on my diploma, that would be fraud and Harvard would pursue the online school to prevent it from using it's logo and misrepresenting. In this case, it is possible the supplier is unaware of all this, perhaps, but, clearly the accreditation body is committing intentional fraud.

 

[Colin]

Helmut, unless I am missing something here (and that is entirely possible!), all the logo says is that the company are registered to ISO 9001. That could be perfectly possible couldn't it?

It doesn't state that they are accredited or not. As we know, it is not illegal to register someone - we effectively do so ourselves when we create an approved supplier list. The difference being that we don't issue a logo for them to display - but I am sure we could if we chose to do so.

I am not supporting the deception of organisations when they think that what they are getting is not all it seems to be, (goodness knows I have come across too many of these) but if they walk into this willingly, with their eyes open, I don't believe it can be called dishonest.

 

[Helmut Jilling]

Helmut, unless I am missing something here (and that is entirely possible!), all the logo says is that the company are registered to ISO 9001. That could be perfectly possible couldn't it?

It doesn't state that they are accredited or not. As we know, it is not illegal to register someone - we effectively do so ourselves when we create an approved supplier list. The difference being that we don't issue a logo for them to display - but I am sure we could if we chose to do so.

I am not supporting the deception of organisations when they think that what they are getting is not all it seems to be, (goodness knows I have come across too many of these) but if they walk into this willingly, with their eyes open, I don't believe it can be called dishonest.

Good question...this is not my area of responsibility...I don't do the CB office stuff like AndyN and Sidney do....but I am pretty sure that ISO does not allow their logo to be used except on accredited certificates. Any other use would be akin to my example of a community college using Harvard's logo on their certs. The part that baffles me is why ISO does not aggressively police this better.

 

[Sidney Vianna]

Any organization that relies on a logo to make supplier selection decisions has serious shortcomings.

As Colin mentioned, there is nothing inherently wrong with that mark. A supplier might want to adorn it's website with all kinds of badges and logos. But, as a customer I should have processes in place to determine if there is substance behind the bling.

 

[Helmut Jilling]

Any organization that relies on a logo to make supplier selection decisions has serious shortcomings.

As Colin mentioned, there is nothing inherently wrong with that mark. A supplier might want to adorn it's website with all kinds of badges and logos. But, as a customer I should have processes in place to determine if there is substance behind the bling.

"Nothing inherently wrong?" Surely, you are not seriously suggesting people can just use other companies logos to repesent their own work? It may not be illegal, but a corporate attorney would certainly issue a "cease and desist" letter, or follow up with a lawsuit. It certainly is dishonest and intentionally fraudulent and deceptive. The acceditation body is intentionally misrepresenting their accreditation. I would not do business with that CB or AB, and would seriously evaluate whether I even want to do business with a supplier like that....smells to high heaven....

 

[Big Jim]

"Nothing inherently wrong?" Surely, you are not seriously suggesting people can just use other companies logos to repesent their own work? It may not be illegal, but a corporate attorney would certainly issue a "cease and desist" letter, or follow up with a lawsuit. It certainly is dishonest and intentionally fraudulent and deceptive. The acceditation body is intentionally misrepresenting their accreditation. I would not do business with that CB or AB, and would seriously evaluate whether I even want to do business with a supplier like that....smells to high heaven....

Is that particular logo copyrighted? If not, what is the basis for a cease and desist letter?

Inherently dishonest, very likely, but there may not be a property rights issue here.

 

[Sidney Vianna]

people can just use other companies logos to repesent their own work?

Whose logo?

The acceditation body is intentionally misrepresenting their accreditation.

Which accreditation body?

I have no idea of what conclusions you've reached just by looking at a mark. But, that is not the ISO logo and it does not imply accredited certification. There is nothing inherently wrong with the mark presented. If people make unsupported assumptions about a mark, the problem is not with the user of the mark, but the eyes of the beholder.

 

[Helmut Jilling]

Is that particular logo copyrighted? If not, what is the basis for a cease and desist letter?

Inherently dishonest, very likely, but there may not be a property rights issue here.

I am not qualified as a lawyer, but there is no doubt the ISO mark is both copyrighted and trademarked. Even my registrar (Smithers Quality Assessments), has done that much.

But, approaching it from an honesty level, imagine if a small food company place Procter & Gamble's logo on their product and said their food was accredited by P&G... You think maybe the P&G lawyers would step in and politely ask them to stop?

The AB and CB in this case knowingly are misrepreseting that this certificate is accredited. That is itentionally dishonesst and fraudulent. The supplier may or may not know. But, when informed tat they are not full certified as other suppliers are, they have to make a decision. If they make the wrong decision, as customer would have to evaluate if they are willing to make the "wrong decision" in other situations when the customer's interests are at risk. The supply chain is a trust relationship, and supppliers who are dishonest in one area are apt to be dishonest in other areas.