Using an "obsolete" test method - TS 16949 Audit Non-Conformance

[D.Scott]

When a document is obsoleted, it ceases to exist, for all practical purposes. There can be no "latest version" of something that doesn't exist. While the argument may be made that the contract specifies use of a standard that refers to the obsolete document and thus the test method should still be used, the problem I see is in the failure to resolve the situation two years ago when the test method document went obsolete. IMO, "We assumed it was OK" is not a good answer. I'm standing by my original answer--they should have either stopped using the standard--because the customer told them it no longer exists--or they should have gotten something in writing telling them to keep using it.

This is not meant to be argumentative but I don't agree that an "obsolete" document ceases to exist. It can be classified as "obsolete" by the originator while still in use by other parties. If, for example, I write a test procedure for use in my company and a number of associate companies use the test because it fits their criteria as well, the fact that I make it obsolete does not invalidate the test method. We have customers today who ask for specific tests done to an old ASTM test method because it fits what they need. The method still exists although ASTM no longer classifies
it as active.

they should have either stopped using the standard--because the customer told them it no longer exists

I understood that DCX never told Ken it was obsolete yet continued to require it on their specification. If, in fact they were told by the customer, then yes, they should have resolved it.

Dave

 

[Jim Wynne]

We can agree to disagree on the subject of document obsolescence. The distinction is between obsolescence of the method and the document. Of course it's possible to go on using the method forever. What we're talking about here, though, is document control. If DCX never informed the OP that the document was obsolete, where was the OP's process for making sure that only current versions are in use? It's a supplier's responsibility to verify currency of customer standards.
In my experience, there's a very simple cure for a customer's procrastination in supplying what's needed. A phone call to the right person, saying that there's product on the dock ready to go, but it ain't goin' nowhere until the documentation is right, can work wonders.

 

[D.Scott]

In my experience, there's a very simple cure for a customer's procrastination in supplying what's needed. A phone call to the right person, saying that there's product on the dock ready to go, but it ain't goin' nowhere until the documentation is right, can work wonders.

And with that, we certainly agree.

Dave

 

[Ken K]

An update:

Ever try to find a contact within a corporation when you have an "issue" that needs to be resolved? Sort of like searching for a needle in a haystack...

Anyways, we finally received a reply from DCX today. According to them, the test method is still "Active" according to their system (ADAPT) Somewhere along the line, the company we get our updated specs from listed the test method as "Expired"???? in 2003 and finally "Obsolete" in 2004 although that was not the case. In late 2004, a search for the test method came back empty because it was removed from the system.

Now we need to search for another contact...