Using our parent company's ISO/TS 16949 Quality Manual

[mohamedhrr]

Dear Experts,

Please find an attached file (Index of Quality Manual).

This is our parent company's quality manual, which is already TS cerrtified.
This is given to us for reference since our company is going for TS certification.

My Queries:
1.Can we use the same manual, as the products of both companies are same.
2.If we want to eliminate some procedures how can we eliminate and include it in the manual. (example control procedure for customer property).
3.Design and Development is carried by our parent organization, still should we have a procedure for Design & development, or we can show the Audit reports of our parent company to the CB during our Audit.
4.For maintenance, no documented procedure is required, how can we place a system for maintenance without a documented procedure ( means how can we show it in the manual).

I hope i am clear, If not please ask for further details,

Thanks a lot in advance

 

[John Broomfield]

Re: Using our parent company's TS16949 Quality Manual

Dear Experts,

Please find an attached file (Index of Quality Manual).

This is our parent company's quality manual, which is already TS cerrtified.
This is given to us for reference since our company is going for TS certification.

My Queries:
1.Can we use the same manual, as the products of both companies are same.
2.If we want to eliminate some procedures how can we eliminate and include it in the manual. (example control procedure for customer property).
3.Design and Development is carried by our parent organization, still should we have a procedure for Design & development, or we can show the Audit reports of our parent company to the CB during our Audit.
4.For maintenance, no documented procedure is required, how can we place a system for maintenance without a documented procedure ( means how can we show it in the manual).

I hope i am clear, If not please ask for further details,

Thanks a lot in advance

mohamed,

Your parent company's manual mainly describes its management system not its products. I doubt your management system is exactly the same but it may be a good template for describing your organization's management system.

Removing documented procedures for a general description in the manual is fine provided you are not removing one of the seven and the controls are documented sufficient for effective planning, operation and control.

You still have responsibility for the design of your manufacturing processes even if you can show the product is designed elsewhere.

As for predictive and preventive maintenance see my second paragraph above. I doubt the maintenance team would find it convenient to consult the manual in doing their jobs.

Best wishes,

John

 

[mohamedhrr]

Re: Using our parent company's TS16949 Quality Manual

mohamed,

Your parent company's manual mainly describes its management system not its products. I doubt your management system is exactly the same but it may be a good template for describing your organization's management system.

Removing documented procedures for a general description in the manual is fine provided you are not removing one of the seven and the controls are documented sufficient for effective planning, operation and control.

You still have responsibility for the design of your manufacturing processes even if you can show the product is designed elsewhere.

As for predictive and preventive maintenance see my second paragraph above. I doubt the maintenance team would find it convenient to consult the manual in doing their jobs.

Best wishes,

John

Thanks a lot for the Quick reply,

Our management system is same as of our parent company.

We are not going to eliminate any of the 7 mandatory procedures.

Apart from the mandatory, what procedures be can eliminated from our manual (if you have seen the attached Quality manual Index) in your opinion.
The Idea is to shorten the manual.

If the "Control procedure of Customer Property" is eliminated from the manual, where should we reference the forms available under this procedure.
Can we reference it in the Manual itself without making a separate procedure.

Kindly suggest.

 

[John Broomfield]

Re: Using our parent company's TS16949 Quality Manual

Thanks a lot for the Quick reply,

Our management system is same as of our parent company.

We are not going to eliminate any of the 7 mandatory procedures.

Apart from the mandatory, what procedures be can eliminated from our manual (if you have seen the attached Quality manual Index) in your opinion.
The Idea is to shorten the manual.

If the "Control procedure of Customer Property" is eliminated from the manual, where should we reference the forms available under this procedure.
Can we reference it in the Manual itself without making a separate procedure.

Kindly suggest.

mohamed,


"Removing documented procedures for a general description in the manual is fine provided... ...the controls are documented sufficient for effective planning, operation and control."

This would include references to the applicable forms and instructions.

I would not make these changes.

I would keep the parent company manual as it is except to expand the scope statement to include your organization. Then use the system and wait for the system to tell you what improvements you need, if any, at the local level.

You may find your parent company is very responsive to making the changes you suggest when supported by convincing cost:benefit analyses.

John

 

[mohamedhrr]

Re: Using our parent company's TS16949 Quality Manual

mohamed,


"Removing documented procedures for a general description in the manual is fine provided... ...the controls are documented sufficient for effective planning, operation and control."

This would include references to the applicable forms and instructions.

I would not make these changes.

I would keep the parent company manual as it is except to expand the scope statement to include your organization. Then use the system and wait for the system to tell you what improvements you need, if any, at the local level.

You may find your parent company is very responsive to making the changes you suggest when supported by convincing cost:benefit analyses.

John

Dear Sir,
Thanks a lot,

I am interested to go in the same way as you suggested.
But Management here wants me to Shorten the Manual, as the company has just started the operations and the Man Power at present is less(Approx 70 in total).

So In your Opinion, How should i do this?

Kindly suggest

 

[John Broomfield]

Re: Using our parent company's TS16949 Quality Manual

Dear Sir,
Thanks a lot,

I am interested to go in the same way as you suggested.
But Management here wants me to Shorten the Manual, as the company has just started the operations and the Man Power at present is less(Approx 70 in total).

So In your Opinion, How should i do this?

Kindly suggest

mohamed,

Thanks for the clarification. You said "Our management system is same as of our parent company."

Now you are saying your management system does not have the resources for it to be the same.

This suggests to me that you need to develop your own process-based management system based on what you already do. Add new processes and controls and provide training as necessary, then describe your management system in your own manual.

You could use your parent company's system documentation only for establishing any new processes and controls necessary for your management system to conform to ISO/TS 16949.

As the junior partner with your parent company, you would probably use their procedures for managing the processes that operate between both organizations.

The parent company's manual is not a good starting point. And imposing it on your colleagues would not be welcome. Ask them to help in developing the management system they already know.

Or, analyze the shortfall in resources and recommend who should be authorized by top management to take on the additional responsibilities so your organization can make the parent company's processes a reality.

John

 

[mohamedhrr]

Re: Using our parent company's TS16949 Quality Manual

mohamed,

Thanks for the clarification. You said "Our management system is same as of our parent company."

Now you are saying your management system does not have the resources for it to be the same.

This suggests to me that you need to develop your own process-based management system based on what you already do. Add new processes and controls and provide training as necessary, then describe your management system in your own manual.

You could use your parent company's system documentation only for establishing any new processes and controls necessary for your management system to conform to ISO/TS 16949.

As the junior partner with your parent company, you would probably use their procedures for managing the processes that operate between both organizations.

The parent company's manual is not a good starting point. And imposing it on your colleagues would not be welcome. Ask them to help in developing the management system they already know.

Or, analyze the shortfall in resources and recommend who should be authorized by top management to take on the additional responsibilities so your organization can make the parent company's processes a reality.

John

Dear sir,

Sorry if i have confused you.

All the processes are same as our parent company's.
But design & development of product and process are carried out by our parent company, including purchasing of raw material too.
we are only responsible for manufacturing.
So i was thinking of using the same manual for manufacturing procedures, excluding the procedures for design & development.
1) If our parent company is responsible for the purchase of raw material,(they are supplying the raw material after purchasing from their supplier) how should we have control over this.
2) Whether the document issued by our parent company to us should be considered as external documents or internal documents ( Product drawings,Control plan, FMEA etc)

Kindly suggest.

Thanks in Advance

 

[John Broomfield]

Re: Using our parent company's TS16949 Quality Manual

Dear sir,

Sorry if i have confused you.

All the processes are same as our parent company's.
But design & development of product and process are carried out by our parent company, including purchasing of raw material too.
we are only responsible for manufacturing.
So i was thinking of using the same manual for manufacturing procedures, excluding the procedures for design & development.
1) If our parent company is responsible for the purchase of raw material,(they are supplying the raw material after purchasing from their supplier) how should we have control over this.
2) Whether the document issued by our parent company to us should be considered as external documents or internal documents ( Product drawings,Control plan, FMEA etc)

Kindly suggest.

Thanks in Advance

mohamed,

1) Refer to your parent company's procedures for selecting and developing suppliers and purchasing conforming materials. Monitor the effectiveness of these outsourced processes and include them in your internal audit programme.

2) Documented information issued and updated by your parent company is external to your management system unless you operate as an extension of your parent company's management system.

John

 

[mohamedhrr]

Re: Using our parent company's TS16949 Quality Manual

mohamed,

1) Refer to your parent company's procedures for selecting and developing suppliers and purchasing conforming materials. Monitor the effectiveness of these outsourced processes and include them in your internal audit programme.

2) Documented information issued and updated by your parent company is external to your management system unless you operate as an extension of your parent company's management system.

John

Thanks a lot sir,

Purchasing of the Raw material is taken care by our parent company , we are not directly connected with the supplier.

We send the request to our parent company regarding the Raw material requirement, and they place the order and get the material for us on our behalf.
In this case how should we have control over the supplier.

Thanks in advance

 

[John Broomfield]

Re: Using our parent company's TS16949 Quality Manual

Thanks a lot sir,

Purchasing of the Raw material is taken care by our parent company , we are not directly connected with the supplier.

We send the request to our parent company regarding the Raw material requirement, and they place the order and get the material for us on our behalf.
In this case how should we have control over the supplier.

Thanks in advance

mohamed,

You have outsourced direct control over the supplier to your parent company which is a party to the contract with the supplier.

As a result of your outsourcing, all you can do is provide your inputs (requirements) to your parent company and monitor the effectiveness of the processes they use to select the supplier, develop the supplier, issue purchase orders and for ensuring conformity of the materials to the specifications. And you should audit these activities for effectiveness.

John