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Validation - The process or product? ISO 9001 Clause 7.3.6

J

John Martinez

#11
Since this thread is in the ISO 9001 area, would it be beneficial to use the defintions of validation and verification as stated in ISO 9000:2005?

In my opinion, the original question was one of compliance to the standard and not a question of best practice.

I really, really think that having an understanding of the meaning of these terms as defiend in ISO 9000 would help. Some posters might even realize they have defined the terms opposite as they are defined in ISO 9000:2005. And having mixed definitions may have a big impact on 7.5.2 if that is a clause that applies to your organization.
How about this. Design verification is "have I done all the items that were required" So, if I'm designing a concrete boat, have I followed all processes, procedures, test, etc.

Validation - I have to put the concrete boat in water (actual boat or a scale model in a water tank) to validate my design to float.

Yes, if there is proper water displacement, a concrete boat will float. :biglaugh:
 
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V

vanputten

#12
I like John's example of the concrete boat. You may have meant concrete life preservers. Concrete boats do displace their weight in water.

At one time, concrete boats were manufactured becasue of the efficiency gains during construction (pour the hull in a mold.) I believe the USA made concrete ships for World War I becasue of the speed of manufacture.

However, the nature of concrete is that it is not the best material on the high seas in terms of flex.
 
J

John Martinez

#13
I like John's example of the concrete boat. You may have meant concrete life preservers. Concrete boats do displace their weight in water.

At one time, concrete boats were manufactured becasue of the efficiency gains during construction (pour the hull in a mold.) I believe the USA made concrete ships for World War I becasue of the speed of manufacture.

However, the nature of concrete is that it is not the best material on the high seas in terms of flex.
Nope. Boat. I use that light hearted example to explain the two to newbies. A concrete life preserver is what you get from a low cost registrar. :topic:
 

Big Jim

Super Moderator
#14
I don't see why this is so hard to deal with. The answer is in the standard itself. Take another look at elements 7.3.5 and 7.3.6 after reading this and see for yourself.

So far, everyone seems to understand verification quite well. It is confirming that the design went as planned.

Validation though, is ensuring that the end product is suitable for its intended use.

If things went well during design, the end product will be suitable for its intended use. If design had some bad premises or went off track, the end product may not be suitable for its intended use.

In some companies, it is not uncommon for validation to be performed by someone other than the project manager. Sometimes those involved in design are unable to objectively identify problems that keep the end product from being suitable for its intended use. Validation might be done by a peer, or by the project managers superior. In my mind, validation done by someone other than the designer is ideal, but it is not a requirement of the standard.
 
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Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#15
Verification though, is ensuring that the end product is suitable for its intended use.
No, you're describing validation. It gets confusing because validation is a form of verification, but nonetheless the distinction is important.

Verification: The act of ensuring that the product meets the specified requirements (materials, dimensional requirements, cosmetic requirements, etc.)

Validation: The act of ensuring that the product will function as intended.

The distinction exists because it's possible for a product to meet the documented specifications and requirements but not function as intended. The operation is a success, but the patient is dead.

Before you can determine whether or not a product will function as intended, you have to know something about the intended use. If a person uses a butter knife as a screwdriver he shouldn't be surprised if it doesn't work very well. In the OP's situation, he's making some sort of "bin" and must have some idea of its intended use and can make a rational judgment about whether or not it will work as intended. The standard is explicit in stating that validation of a product is required only when "practicable." This is because it's not always possible to determine or predict what a product might be used for.
 
N

narayanghimire

#16
How I understand this issue is as below:

You know, when you look into design, ensure and implement all system in place to confirm your system ability to built quality in => it will be your quality assurance. When you tests for conformity to your ability through testing (on line or off line) => it will quality control.

Now let see about maintained records, which is may be Tier 3 documents. All your documents will be evidence of your work done. It reflects your quality system in place. Once you review it (like supervisor review and sign, calibration with traceability, approved like internal customer that may be QC release) it will be verifications. Once your external customer accepts it or once you do the internal audit with successful audit result it will be validation. But latter might not possible prior shipment. Thus a system of reviewing pre shipment finished products have been introduced for validation and it is expected to do by qualified personnel.

Let see the case where is no involvements of external customer (i.e. most favorably the end user). Like ability of your test methods during method development? In this case once you produce result it will be first datum of your result. When second time also you produce consistent result => it will assume as accidental outcome hopping or may due co-incident. When third time also you concurrently achieve same precision, now it will said to be validated practically. Though there is lengthy validation procedures in place that we supposed to follow. However bottom line is same with some magnification issues.

On other cases, help of few objective based evidences are taken (like in internal audit - what you see by eye, what documents says and what the operator says - are they supports each other or are in contradictions) to validate.

Let see your case:

ISO 7.3.6 "Wherever practicable validation is completed prior to the delivery or the implementation of the product"

=> Said Review to conformance to design and specifications through QC are the verifications. Before shipment review and products audit by your designated but qualified person confirming the product quality under review are fit for intended purposes and are with in specifications agreed will be the prior to delivery validation.

=> Note in true sense, unless your products will accepted by your end user verifying they were with in specifications desired confirming fit for intended purposes (after that you normally receive payment and re-order), it will not be validated. Mean time your internal audit also validate your job completing your cycle.

a) What to validate? => Yours products ability to satisfy intended use and specifications

b) Normally bins can´t be tested before to be installed in field, so It can´t be validated => I hope when you design it, you did it at the time of design validation. Based on that your customer satisfied to use it and reached into an agreement to use your service of specified specifications. Every time you need not to do it. And no one do it every time.

c) Validate is to ensure equipment was built according to drawings? => It is partially true but it covers design validation part. It is not true that all products as per specified design will meet specifications you agreed with your customer. Because product is only a part of your system. There might be other issues like delivery time, handling environment, presentation requirements etc

D) Or it is To evaluate its performance, ? (solid into the bins flowing fine, no clogging, etc) but when, if ISO states "Prior" => It is also already done during design validation period. However you shall cover this issues in each pre-shipments review.

E) Or means to validate the Drawings production, I mean, if my process is to develop Engineering Drawings, my process is to produce drawings or should I focus on the products which are built based on the drawings? => Here I prefer to forgot other things and just like to look on what is your commitment to your client, what are expectation already established as anticipated needs and what is intended use of your products? Did you meet it? yes as per your internal review - it is verified. When your customer says - yes I am satisfied - it is validated.

ISO normally concern in your ability and system in place with appropriate documentations for job verification.

Please comment if some one has some objection on what I explain.

Narayan Ghimire
Canada
 

Big Jim

Super Moderator
#17
No, you're describing validation. It gets confusing because validation is a form of verification, but nonetheless the distinction is important.

Verification: The act of ensuring that the product meets the specified requirements (materials, dimensional requirements, cosmetic requirements, etc.)

Validation: The act of ensuring that the product will function as intended.

The distinction exists because it's possible for a product to meet the documented specifications and requirements but not function as intended. The operation is a success, but the patient is dead.

Before you can determine whether or not a product will function as intended, you have to know something about the intended use. If a person uses a butter knife as a screwdriver he shouldn't be surprised if it doesn't work very well. In the OP's situation, he's making some sort of "bin" and must have some idea of its intended use and can make a rational judgment about whether or not it will work as intended. The standard is explicit in stating that validation of a product is required only when "practicable." This is because it's not always possible to determine or predict what a product might be used for.
You are correct. I intended to say that validation is ensuring that the final product is suitable for its intended use. I edited the original post with the correction. Sorry about that.
 
V

vanputten

#18
Not that it is important, but why is a concerte boat a light hearted example of verification and validation? Concrete boats float so it could be verified and validated if that is what the customer wants. One would have to know the applicaiton of the concerte boat to perform the validation. A concrete boat won't necessarily fail validation just because it is concrete.

I know of one concrete boat used as a barge in Great Lakes of the USA. It was used for years and functioned as needed. It would have passed validation for this specific application.
 
A

ab001

#20
We're really proud of the system we use to make concrete life preservers.
Proof is in the fact that none of our customers have ever complained about their effectiveness.
We'd like to find a way to improve our repeat sales - None of our customers have ever come back for another one.

Not that it is important, but why is a concerte boat a light hearted example of verification and validation? Concrete boats float so it could be verified and validated if that is what the customer wants. One would have to know the applicaiton of the concerte boat to perform the validation. A concrete boat won't necessarily fail validation just because it is concrete.

I know of one concrete boat used as a barge in Great Lakes of the USA. It was used for years and functioned as needed. It would have passed validation for this specific application.
 
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