Value Added External Audits - Do External Audits add value to your system?

Have you had any experience of audits that add value to your system?

  • Yes. An external audit has given me value above what I expected.

    Votes: 4 44.4%
  • Yes. I have carried out an audit that I believe added value to a customer's system.

    Votes: 3 33.3%
  • No. Any audits I have had have just covered the elements of ISO.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • No. The idea of value added audits is a non starter.

    Votes: 2 22.2%

  • Total voters
    9

Paul Simpson

Trusted Information Resource
#1
There has been considerable discussion in other threads about the benefits (or otherwise) of audits. With some Covers claiming to offer value added audits and others stating that it either doesn't exist or has no place in the registration process.

I would like people to give their opinion (preferably with examples) on the idea of value added audits.
 
Last edited:
Elsmar Forum Sponsor
R

ralphsulser

#2
I voted external audits provided value added.
Heading down the road to TS16949 registration I welcomed all the input I could get. So I used 2 consultants over the time span, and a pre-assessment.
These all added value to our system implementation and achieving certification. Every audit Ihave had over the years wether 3rd party or 2nd party such as GM, Ford, Chrysler, DOD always resulted in something to improve the system and help customer satisfaction. I have been doing this for 37 years and have been audited by good and bad auditors. But, no bad ones for a long time. The professionalism has improved greatly, probably due to more educational and experience requirements. My 2 cents.
 
M

Mike Smith

#3
I voted yes, they have added value to the organization. There have been opportunities for improvement or actual non-conformances written against us that did not have value, only more paperwork, but the majority of my experiences have been value added. I believe another set of eyes can only help.
 
J

jcbodie

#4
I voted that I felt my external audits have added value to a client's operations, because my clients have told me this, with their pocketbooks and their feet. Over the last 13+ years of being a Registrar Auditor, with a change in Registrar about a year ago, I've had clients that have been with me for over 10 yrs, who have repeatedly indicated that they specifically look to work with me and look forward to their audits, because of my thoroughness and value added observations (not consulting) :eek: The clients that came over to my current Registrar, made it clear that the reason was they wanted to continue the professional relationship with me.

I am neither an easy nor unreasonable auditor (the clients' words). Gratefully, I have had clients thank me for my time and efforts and have told me that I have helped make their business better, even though they are paying for it and, in my mind, I'm just trying to deliver the service that they expect (and then some). :) I am extremely careful to watch what OFI's I am suggesting, so that I am not consulting nor offering up the competitions' secrets. Although I'm certain there are some horror stories out there (as with any profession), the 3rd party auditors I've had the pleasure to work with, conduct themselves similarly.

Within this context, I always consider the clients' requests, as they ultimately determine the level of their customer satisfaction with my Registrar's (and my) provided service. That said, I must confess I was amazed at Carl's comments, in another thread, that he wanted no value-added actions (non-consulting) whatsoever and a strictly "by the book" audit. Before my comment starts off another p***ing match, I want to make clear that I have no problem with this, although it would seem counterproductive in my (and I think most 3rd party auditors') eyes. In all my years of auditing, with all different company sizes', well-known, as well as, "mom and pop" outfits, I have NEVER heard of any client not wanting value-added remarks :confused: (Honest to God, Cross my heart and hope to die, stick a needle in my eye). Carl is the first. Again, I don't have a problem with Carl's statement, if that's what he wants out of his audit. My only concern would be whether or not he has made sure the auditor, that he works with, understands his expectation. If Carl has, then that's his prerogative.

I believe some of the problem in other related threads, revolves around peoples' personal opinion of what constitutes "consulting" or "value-added". And, yes, even if there are Tech Guideline documents setting the tone for these descriptors, there is obviously still enough gray area left open to interpretation, judging from all the discussion. My :2cents: worth (hopefully, without any hint of consulting) ;)
 
Last edited by a moderator:
R

Rob Nix

#5
I voted no, but I was not comfortable with the polling questions - they did not seem clear and cohesive. First of all, it only generally refers to "an external audit". External audit of what kind? 2nd party? 3rd party? or consulting oriented? I may have answered differently for each one.

It is also confusing as to the perspective of the target of the poll. The first choice seems to target the auditee, whereas the second targets the auditor. I also do not know what "...is a non-starter" means.

It might have been clearer if, for example, the poll related to 3rd party audits where the target is the auditee (the company being audited). Then the question might have been: What is your experience with value-adding 3rd party audits?, with the following choices:
- Very Good. They offered a value-adding service that helped my organization
- Fair. The value was limited.
- Poor. I expected value adding assistance but did not receive it.
- I did not expect, nor want value-adding service - simply confirmation of compliance or not.

However, if I paid a consulting service to externally audit my system, I would expect a whole lot of value adding going on.
 

Paul Simpson

Trusted Information Resource
#7
Two points of view

Rob, you may be right in your comments about the poll not being clear. I will try to explain the intent.
Rob Nix said:
I voted no, but I was not comfortable with the polling questions - they did not seem clear and cohesive. First of all, it only generally refers to "an external audit". External audit of what kind? 2nd party? 3rd party? or consulting oriented? I may have answered differently for each one.
I was referring to 3rd party audits. if people have examples of 2nd party or consulting audits either being value adding or not - then that all adds to the debate.

Rob Nix said:
It is also confusing as to the perspective of the target of the poll. The first choice seems to target the auditee, whereas the second targets the auditor.
This was to allow those of us who carry out 3rd party audits to have the opportunity of saying whether we feel we go beyond ISO and into the value add (while navigating carefully around the consulting iceberg)
Rob Nix said:
I also do not know what "...is a non-starter" means.
In other threads people have stated that "value add" is something they do not want to see cross the threshold dressed as a 3rd party audit. In other words - leave it to the consultants.

Rob Nix said:
It might have been clearer if, for example, the poll related to 3rd party audits where the target is the auditee (the company being audited). Then the question might have been: What is your experience with value-adding 3rd party audits?, with the following choices:
- Very Good. They offered a value-adding service that helped my organization
- Fair. The value was limited.
- Poor. I expected value adding assistance but did not receive it.
- I did not expect, nor want value-adding service - simply confirmation of compliance or not.
Perhaps when this poll has run its course (albeit with somewhat dodgy poll response options) someone will try this alternative approach.

Rob Nix said:
However, if I paid a consulting service to externally audit my system, I would expect a whole lot of value adding going on.
And if you got some of it for free with your ISO registration would that interest you?
 
J

jmp4429

#8
Can someone draw the line for me between “value added” auditing and consulting? I’m guessing that if the suggestions made could cause a conflict of interest next audit, you’ve crossed the line into consulting. Is that about accurate?
 

Caster

An Early Cover
Trusted Information Resource
#9
I'll hire ya!

jcbodie said:
...my external audits have added value to a client's operations, because my clients have told me this, with their pocketbooks and their feet. Over the last 13+ years of being a Registrar Auditor, with a change in Registrar about a year ago, I've had clients that have been with me for over 10 yrs, who have repeatedly indicated that they specifically look to work with me and look forward to their audits, because of my thoroughness and value added observations (not consulting) ...
Right on!

I hope I'm not in the minority here, but I care little about auditing for compliance. That path leads to "concrete parachutes" and "buying a plaque for the wall". Any halfways decent mature quality system will be pretty close ot compliant.

I want what you provide. A peek at the outside world. Access to new ideas.

Call it consulting, call it consauditing...call it your pappy. It's what makes the audit process worthwhile for me.

I do notice that this skill is "auditor specific". Some know how to help me see a better way, others are just looking for rev numbers and cal stickers.

I think trade secrets are a red herring. Even before the internet, there really weren't any secrets that provided any competitive advantage for any length of time. At least not in my industry.
 
R

Rob Nix

#10
Paul Simpson said:
And if you got some of it for free with your ISO registration would that interest you?
I guess a lot depends on the knowledge and experience (related to the standards) of the people within the organization. IMHO, I know enough about quality systems, picked up over the last 30 years, to set up an effective QMS; so that all I want from a registrar is to buy a certificate (with the major proviso that a key customer requires it). If that means enduring a few hours of questions and paying a few dollars, so be it.

I understand Caster's thought about getting an outsider's take, "thinking outside the box", but I simply prefer to get that by different means, e.g. trade shows, seminars, conferences, books, etc.

No offense to the fine auditors out there (no offence to the English registrars), but after going through hundreds of audits (on both sides of the fence), I've become numb to the accretionary suggestions on how to better format your CAR form, or put up a board in the shop for measureables, or setting up a suggestion system.

I'm sure there are many companies that are still unfamiliar with ISO and its relatives, and the ideas they espouse, that would welcome having a single organization (i.e. registrar) that could help them improve their systems AND get them ISO registered, rather than hire both a consultant AND a registrar. But I believe that fewer companies will fit that description as time goes on, and then what are you going to do?

It's a thin line you registrar folks walk, and I don't envy you. I couldn't do 3rd party audits because I wouldn't be able to resist the urge to tell them specifically what would work for them, and then create for them on the spot.

I'm rambling now, so I'll stop..... :rolleyes:
 
Thread starter Similar threads Forum Replies Date
BeaBea Registrars with VAR (Value Added Reseller) experience Registrars and Notified Bodies 8
G Non Value Added Corrective Actions IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 15
V Analysis of 'Value Added' System & Process Steps - Inspection Pharmaceuticals (21 CFR Part 210, 21 CFR Part 211 and related Regulations) 2
D Value-Added Analysis - Staff (Employee) Satisfaction Quality Tools, Improvement and Analysis 11
T ISO Auditor Training - What online training is actually value added? ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 13
WCHorn Are Inspection Operations Value Added? Lean in Manufacturing and Service Industries 50
A Value added activities and WIP in a VSM Lean in Manufacturing and Service Industries 2
B Distributor Outsourcing Value Added Services - Is it work transfer? AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 9
Z How to Establish a Process in Terms of more Added Value? ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 1
J Adding Value to a 3rd Party Audit - What does 'Value Added' mean to you? General Auditing Discussions 25
M SPC vs. 100% Inspection - Is SPC still value-added when 100% inspection is in place? FMEA and Control Plans 40
Jen Kirley Beyond Compliance: Value-added auditing for system performance The Reading Room 9
G Added Value of EN9100 Certification for the Business - Aerospace and defence AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 2
W Is R&D a value-added process? IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 4
R Added Value Benefits for a Warehousing Company to be ISO13485 Registered ISO 13485:2016 - Medical Device Quality Management Systems 4
T Recertification for Internal Supplier Auditors value added General Auditing Discussions 9
D Testing process is non value added process under TS16949? IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 1
T Increasing Quality: Cost vs. Value Added Misc. Quality Assurance and Business Systems Related Topics 3
L Corrective Action System - Not Value Added ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 10
D VALUE ADDED - Take 2 Misc. Quality Assurance and Business Systems Related Topics 28
D Definition Value Added - Definition of 'Value Added' and the Three Levels of Value Added Definitions, Acronyms, Abbreviations and Interpretations Listed Alphabetically 46
A Linking ISO 9000 to Economic Value Added ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 2
S PPAP can we say waiver? A bureaucratic, non value-added mess QS-9000 - American Automotive Manufacturers Standard 38
M Determining a tolerance value for Measuring devices in-house inspection General Measurement Device and Calibration Topics 12
Proud Liberal Improving low p-value Statistical Analysis Tools, Techniques and SPC 13
qualprod Best approach to get a real value as average? Statistical Analysis Tools, Techniques and SPC 6
F Missing value of Uncertainty B Measurement Uncertainty (MU) 10
F Calibration certificate content - Average Value and True Value ISO 17025 related Discussions 6
S In BAC5300 we have machining mismatch allowed is 3tau, what is the value of tau? Document Control Systems, Procedures, Forms and Templates 1
S Change value of target during a batch Capability, Accuracy and Stability - Processes, Machines, etc. 0
A Acceptance p-value for linearity and bias analysis in minitab results Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 0
A Torque Value for Different types of Fasteners (Socket Head, Button Head, CSK) Manufacturing and Related Processes 2
M IATF 16949 - 8.5.6.1.1 Providing a list of process controls: Does this requirement add value to QMS? IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 4
qualprod Cycle times, value stream mapping, inventory, average values? Lean in Manufacturing and Service Industries 1
Ashok sunder What are the criteria for setting a target KPI value against a quality objective? Benchmarking 7
S Adding Value prior to signing EASA Form 1 EASA and JAA Aviation Standards and Requirements 5
M Creating a Plant Level Value Stream Map Process Maps, Process Mapping and Turtle Diagrams 1
A IMDS - Changing the Locked Weight Value RoHS, REACH, ELV, IMDS and Restricted Substances 1
T Value Chain Map for Food Services Industry Service Industry Specific Topics 1
O P-Value less than 0.05. but everything else in control Statistical Analysis Tools, Techniques and SPC 19
qualprod P x I = Value interpretation for residual risk? ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 1
O CPK with a P value less than 0.005 Manufacturing and Related Processes 8
G What degrees of freedom means in uncertainty budget and how do I set the value Measurement Uncertainty (MU) 2
Q Really do they add value (Vision, Mission, Values)? ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 1
D What is the exact Temperature Coefficient Value to be set on a Conductivity Meter? General Measurement Device and Calibration Topics 2
M Value Stream Mapping Calculations Process Maps, Process Mapping and Turtle Diagrams 5
L How to interpret the average R bar Value shown in the R Chart Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 2
R How To Calculate & Print CDF and Lower Bound CDF value for some t(time) with Minitab? Using Minitab Software 1
P Purpose of calculating Uncertainty value in calibration study Measurement Uncertainty (MU) 5
J Agenda of Value Stream Mapping workshop required Quality Tools, Improvement and Analysis 1

Similar threads

Top Bottom