Value Added External Audits - Do External Audits add value to your system?

Have you had any experience of audits that add value to your system?

  • Yes. An external audit has given me value above what I expected.

    Votes: 4 44.4%
  • Yes. I have carried out an audit that I believe added value to a customer's system.

    Votes: 3 33.3%
  • No. Any audits I have had have just covered the elements of ISO.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • No. The idea of value added audits is a non starter.

    Votes: 2 22.2%

  • Total voters
    9
C

Carl Keller

#21
I look at it in pretty clear terms.

If the auditor can't write a non-conformance for it, they should not be auditing it.

Carl-
 
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B

betterlife

#22
Carl Keller said:
I look at it in pretty clear terms.
If the auditor can't write a non-conformance for it, they should not be auditing it.Carl-
In principle your viewpoint is perfectly right, but in practice it is not followed srictly by ABs/CBs and their auditors, due to many market compulsions.
 
M

malicove

#23
I voted YES as it is a continuation of my opinions expressed in another hot thread.
Basic question is: Why a company decides to be externally audited and certified ?. If it is only a client requirement or expectation the value of the audit is a contract (so sooner an auditor leaves a company premises the better). But if a company decides to implement ISO9001 as a tool for improvement and to increase its competitiveness it expects some added value from the external audit. There is no value from the Certificate itself (no one will pay more for your products or services only because you are ISO9001 Certified) so what is the reason to be certified and pay for the audit. As I mentioned in another thread, I have already audited more then 200 companies and it only happened once that I had a feeling (they were polite enough not to say it openly) that company people wanted me just to “confirm” and leave them asap. Usually management expects me to point out areas for improvement and if I discover weak areas they are not satisfied if I say “it is wrong”, in both cases they expect me to explain why (obviously the answer cannot be: “because in another company I audited I saw that and that, etc.”). My general opinion is that there is no future of ISO9001 certification without value added audit but the problem is that it requires value adding auditors. Maciek
 
B

betterlife

#24
Malicove,

I abslutely agree with you. An audit becomes an unproductive excercise if no value is added to the system. While establishing quality objectives for various QMS processes, I generally establish an objective for Internal Audit and Managemen Review - "At least one audit-observation / MR-Decision should result in improvement in product quality or process prformance.
 

Paul Simpson

Trusted Information Resource
#25
Well summarized

malicove said:
Basic question is: Why a company decides to be externally audited and certified?If it is only a client requirement or expectation the value of the audit is a contract (so sooner an auditor leaves a company premises the better).
You've hit the nail on the head Maciek. When quality management system assessment and certification first came out it was a recognition system for organizations with good systems. Then as its use spread people started to require registration of their suppliers. It then becomes a forced purchase like insurance and the attitude goes away from "I want it for my benefit" to "I have to have it at the cheapest cost and least hassle".
malicove said:
But if a company decides to implement ISO9001 as a tool for improvement and to increase its competitiveness it expects some added value from the external audit. There is no value from the Certificate itself (no one will pay more for your products or services only because you are ISO9001 Certified) so what is the reason to be certified and pay for the audit. As I mentioned in another thread, I have already audited more then 200 companies and it only happened once that I had a feeling (they were polite enough not to say it openly) that company people wanted me just to “confirm” and leave them asap. Usually management expects me to point out areas for improvement and if I discover weak areas they are not satisfied if I say “it is wrong”, in both cases they expect me to explain why (obviously the answer cannot be: “because in another company I audited I saw that and that, etc.”). My general opinion is that there is no future of ISO9001 certification without value added audit but the problem is that it requires value adding auditors. Maciek
Certainly some certification bodies are recognizing this. If you only offer "hang it on the wall" assessment and certification you are in the commodity market - cheapest cost and least intrusion - and on the road to cutting corners, hiring less qualified / experienced auditors. However if you can offer a service that companies get value from (as well as an ISO 9000 (or other management system) registration) there is still an opportunity to offer this at a reasonable price.
 
C

Carl Keller

#26
OK,

So if you are buying a new house and the building inspector says:

"Hey, I am going to spend a few extra hours looking at your lawn because I see a lot of lawns and I noticed some brown patches on yours. I want this experience to be value added so I am going to give you some advice"

I am going to assume you guys would say:

" Gee, I am really liking this value added audit, the extra few hundred $$ is worth it!"

I'm thinking He needs to give me my certificate of occupancy and leave. If I want advice on my lawn, I'll call Lawn doctor.

I think PT Barnum was right.

Carl-
 

Paul Simpson

Trusted Information Resource
#27
Carl Keller said:
OK,

So if you are buying a new house and the building inspector says:

"Hey, I am going to spend a few extra hours looking at your lawn because I see a lot of lawns and I noticed some brown patches on yours. I want this experience to be value added so I am going to give you some advice"

I am going to assume you guys would say:

" Gee, I am really liking this value added audit, the extra few hundred $$ is worth it!"

I'm thinking He needs to give me my certificate of occupancy and leave. If I want advice on my lawn, I'll call Lawn doctor.
I personally am not too familiar with the analogy but I'll give it a go. I presume the building inspector is required to look at your house to approve construction (and hence issue the certificate)?

Differences with this type of certification and ISO are:
  • building cert. is (I presume) regulatory, while ISO is not (though from the tone of some posts you would think that it is).
  • ISO is about management systems, improvement, corrective action etc. regulations are about product standards
  • If the inspection had made some comments about the building design that may be closer to the analogy of an ISO auditor commenting about management systems

A lot of this stuff has been stated many times before. Why is it we never have discussions about the content but about examples on the fringes or, in this case, beyond the fringe.
 

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#28
Carl Keller said:
OK,

So if you are buying a new house and the building inspector says:

"Hey, I am going to spend a few extra hours looking at your lawn because I see a lot of lawns and I noticed some brown patches on yours. I want this experience to be value added so I am going to give you some advice"

I am going to assume you guys would say:

" Gee, I am really liking this value added audit, the extra few hundred $$ is worth it!"

I'm thinking He needs to give me my certificate of occupancy and leave. If I want advice on my lawn, I'll call Lawn doctor.

I think PT Barnum was right.

Carl-
I still say this subject keeps getting confused. There are two different and very distinct possibilities:
  • An auditing firm or registrar offers "value added" service and charges extra for it, and/or the advice contributes materially to the auditee's chances of registration. This seems to be clearly proscribed by ISO Guide 62.
  • An auditor happens to notice something in the course of a registration or surveillance audit and he offers advice for improvement that will not affect the auditee's chances of getting registered. This seems to be clearly allowed by Guide 62, but stills seems to be objectionable to some people.
(Note: I am aware that Mr. Simpson disagrees with me on this subject. No need to continue flogging a dead horse.)

The building inspector analogy falls apart here because if an extra "few hundred $$" is being charged,( over and above what one would pay for building inspection alone) then one has to expect to get something other than building inspection in return. On the other hand, if there's no extra charge, and the building inspector says, "You know, I had that same problem with my lawn and I did x," then no harm has been done and you are free to do with the advice whatever you want.
 

Paul Simpson

Trusted Information Resource
#29
Agreement!

JSW05 said:
  • An auditing firm or registrar offers "value added" service and charges extra for it, and/or the advice contributes materially to the auditee's chances of registration. This seems to be clearly proscribed by ISO Guide 62.
  • An auditor happens to notice something in the course of a registration or surveillance audit and he offers advice for improvement that will not affect the auditee's chances of getting registered. This seems to be clearly allowed by Guide 62, but stills seems to be objectionable to some people.
(Note: I am aware that Mr. Simpson disagrees with me on this subject. No need to continue flogging a dead horse.)
On the contrary, we are in agreement (if that isn't a contradiction).


JSW05 said:
The building inspector analogy falls apart here because if an extra "few hundred $$" is being charged,( over and above what one would pay for building inspection alone) then one has to expect to get something other than building inspection in return. On the other hand, if there's no extra charge, and the building inspector says, "You know, I had that same problem with my lawn and I did x," then no harm has been done and you are free to do with the advice whatever you want.
Again agreed. These are typically the "value added" comments that I am referring to. I always say with Observations: "That is all they are, please have a look at them, if they are not useful for you please discard them"
 
B

betterlife

#30
Original intent of ISo 9000 sandards

If I remember correctly (correct me if wrong) the original intent of ISO 9000 was improvement in business performance through following a quality management system. The possibiliy of third-party certification was thought of later. I believe that the orginal intent still dominates the list of benefits of following ISO 9001 compliant QMS.

Due to market compulsions, third-party certification might have become a necessity, but companies with a pro-active approach still put higher emphasis on business improvement. They find the latest version of ISO 9001 a very helpful tool to achieve this. They also consider and expect internal/external audits to add value to their system.

But for those companies who need a certificae only to attach with their replies to cusomer inquiries have no use for ISO 9001 for business improvement. They even do not want to discuss about it. They take (or buy) ISO 9001 certificate for entering in to negotiations with their customers. The question, whether external audits add value to their system, has no relevance in their business plans.
 
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