Value adding for Internal Quality Audit training

#11
Why would anyone put a trainer with less experience in front of delegates who have more experience? How did that happen? Perhaps your 'training process' needs improvement
Several years ago, I had to attend a core tools class. Now, I had taught core tools for the AIAG a few years before, and knew the materials very well. However, Ford's SCR stated that TS internal auditor trainers had to be trained on core tools, themselves. I had no formal core tool training. Hence, I was sent to class. There were 5 students in the class. Of the 5, three of us had a lot of experience in core tools, but were only there to get the certificate to meet the Ford CSR.

Fortunately for the instructor, none of us tried to hi-jack the class and show our knowledge. Which is probably the biggest issue when you have experienced students in your class. I do sometimes have quite experienced students in my internal auditor classes. The company has a bunch of new folks, and decides all of the auditors will go through the same training, so they are all reading off the same page. What I usually do, is begin with a joke that perhaps I will sit down and let them teach the class. Of course some will take me up on the challenge, which I quickly withdraw.

I try to avoid confronting them in the class. It will not make things good to embarrass them infront of their peers. Also remember, that even here at the Cove, we have differences in opinions on interpretations of the standard. So, if there is a difference with the student, I will argue both points to show how the standard could be interpreted either way. This takes the argument away, without needless stepping on his/her toes. BTW, I also will argue different interpretations even with no one bringing them up. Because different external auditors may have a different interpretation than the internal auditor.

To make it more valuable for the advanced student, I will throw out more difficult challenges. Try to get them to think beyond compliance and how they can audit for continual improvement.

I know, a lot of rambling here, but it is something I have run into the past, and it can be a challenge. The student want's to show they do know their stuff to their peers, and we need to reinforce what they know that is correct, and correct what they know that is false.

One last thing. I often pick up some of my better auditing stories for future classes from advanced students (have been caught more than once doing that).
 
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#12
That's a good example, Dave. A little bizarre - been in the self same situation myself and that's another story all by itself.......

Not the norm, I'd suggest. But all your points are very valid - on one occasion of having to attend such training (I'm familiar with), the instructor handled the situation very poorly, when he discovered that there were some other trainers in the room despite them being fee paying customers!

So your comment about how to treat such a situation is very pertinent!
 
#13
You know, Andy, you mentioned Excel Partnerships. That was where I had to go for the core tools. I have to admit, the instructor did a good job. He recognized the situation and did not try to put us in our places. He presented the information as he would for the couple of inexperienced folks, but would on occasion throw something more detailed at us for us to ponder. It really worked out quite nicely. Even the two inexperienced participants thought the blend added value for them.
 
#14
You know, Andy, you mentioned Excel Partnerships. That was where I had to go for the core tools. I have to admit, the instructor did a good job. He recognized the situation and did not try to put us in our places. He presented the information as he would for the couple of inexperienced folks, but would on occasion throw something more detailed at us for us to ponder. It really worked out quite nicely. Even the two inexperienced participants thought the blend added value for them.
Thanks for your comments, Dave! Yes, Excel was, IMHO, one of the best (large) training companies out there. I had a great group of people to work with, many of whom were some of the pioneers of implementation and development of training courses - I have mentioned elsewhere that one of the principles had written the first Lead Auditor course for the SQAs at British Gas......

We have some Excel alums here at the Cove and we often read about their instructors here too. Ben Tully has been mentioned in an AS9100 training context, for example.

It's just a pity and a shame to see what the new 'owners' have done to the old company.
 

Colin

Quite Involved in Discussions
#15
My biggest challenge as a trainer used to occur each year when I worked as the training manager for one of the large CB's in the UK. Each annual conference I had about a day to train all the full time auditors from both home and abroad. The subjects varied but talk about being thrown to the lions ...! :argue:

The most interesting was during the transition from 9001:1994 to 9001:2000. Rather than a day, I had 3 days to convey the changes and to adjust their style of auditing - I learnt a lot about myself. :rolleyes:
 

Jen Kirley

Quality and Auditing Expert
Staff member
Admin
#16
Why would anyone put a trainer with less experience in front of delegates who have more experience? How did that happen? Perhaps your 'training process' needs improvement......:notme:
More experience in what? I could teach a classroom of people with twice my auditing experience if I had a technique to show them that would help them move from compliance auditing to value added auditing.
 

Big Jim

Super Moderator
#17
We're not talking about the same thing, IMHO, Jim!

My assertion is - you can't be a good instructor (let's say of internal audits) if all you've done is sit in someone else's class!

I would hope I had a different style Jim! I'm from a different background, culture etc. I'm sure you get good reviews, so do we all.......

I fully understand that people come to class with more knowledge about (some) things than I have - except the topic we're teaching (otherwise, why would they be there?) I believe you've taken my comments out of context........
So we should agree to disagree.

Yes, I have had students that know more about the topic I'm teaching than I do, even when I'm teaching auditing. I welcome learning from them.
 
#18
I welcome learning from them.
That is really important. Too many times the instructor sees those students as a threat, but when in reality you both could fill in gaps in each other's understanding and both learn a great deal. As an auditor, I have not seen it all, and having experienced auditors in my class can show me things I have yet to experience. And even give insight into interpretations I have not considered.
 
J

JaneB

#19
In any class, there is a diversity of experience. Diversity in both depth and breadth. It is not uncommon for a few students to even know more on some of the topics than the teacher. Great teachers know how to get participation from them and enrich the class.
I agree this can happen at times. One of the worst classes I ever sat through was a Lead Auditor training class (at the time, we needed the certificate). The trainers simply totally ignored all of the experience in the room, and persisted in plodding through the defined curriculum and topics. There was a diverse range, from people who knew zero about 9001, let alone about auditing, all the way up to experienced auditors, including people already running audit programs in a very diverse range of organisations, principally first and 2nd party audits. They could could have added a lot to the discussion.

Instead, we were limited to boring as batpoop lectures and 'exercises' - I could have aced this class without even turning up!! And all the really interesting and valuable discussions happened between us in the breaks! Yet, I'd taken the course several years earlier with a quite different providers, and it was a brilliant course, entertaining and very interesting. The trainer (and their attitude) makes all the difference.

I think respecting students/delegates/whatever you call them as co-participants in learning is important.

Too many times the instructor sees those students as a threat, but when in reality you both could fill in gaps in each other's understanding and both learn a great deal. As an auditor, I have not seen it all, and having experienced auditors in my class can show me things I have yet to experience. And even give insight into interpretations I have not considered.
Sounds like both of you have wise heads on your shoulders. :applause:
 
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