VDA 6.3 - Process Audit - You think you had it bad?

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Richard Pike

#11
Re: VDA 6.3 - You think you had it bad?

What do you consider to be the "Countries / OEM,s where effective Process Auditing is a serious requirement?"

Where could I get the data on the recall rates? Do you have a link to such data for comparison?
Comprehensive Process Auditing is predominantly a requirement of The German Automotive Industry. Its not just an upmarket thing; its an acceptance that the QMS Audit on a stand alone basis; simply does not work effectively in ensuring efficient compliance.

The general Press ! With over 10 million recalls from Toyota and Nissan alone, never mind the high Ford index, speak for themselves.

On a serious note, getting that info is similar to finding Rocking Horse manure - i.e even if you find it, it is likely to be fake!

:topic:One thing for sure; in the Auto Industry; the current model, in most of the world does not work, (has not worked) and is simply the same old thing going round and round. To brag about experience, when the outcome is so poor, is a pretty weak reason to attack an alternative method.

I,m not saying Process Auditing is the answer; however an alternative to what we have been doing is so obviously required and an open mind is surely a prerequisite to that improvement.
 
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Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#12
Re: VDA 6.3 - You think you had it bad?

Comprehensive Process Auditing is predominantly a requirement of The German Automotive Industry. Its not just an upmarket thing; its an acceptance that the QMS Audit on a stand alone basis; simply does not work effectively in ensuring efficient compliance.
Although I know next to nothing about the VDA requirements, I do know that recalls are almost always related to design issues, not manufacturing problems per se, and as such the defects in question are unlikely to be revealed by product audits.
 
R

Richard Pike

#13
Re: VDA 6.3 - You think you had it bad?

Although I know next to nothing about the VDA requirements, I do know that recalls are almost always related to design issues, not manufacturing problems per se, and as such the defects in question are unlikely to be revealed by product audits.
Absolutely: That,s why VDA6.3 is a PROCESS Audit.

Process Audits concentrate NOT on "is the process being followed" but on "is the process effective in meeting the needs. It extends from the Design Process throughout the entire planning and manufacturing cycle to Customer Satisfaction after delivery.

It evaluates - do we have the right process.! In order to do that we need people not only with audit skills but also people with knowledge and experiance in the type of product and corresponding management and production processes.
 

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#14
Re: VDA 6.3 - You think you had it bad?

Absolutely: That,s why VDA6.3 is a PROCESS Audit.

Process Audits concentrate NOT on "is the process being followed" but on "is the process effective in meeting the needs. It extends from the Design Process throughout the entire planning and manufacturing cycle to Customer Satisfaction after delivery.

It evaluates - do we have the right process.! In order to do that we need people not only with audit skills but also people with knowledge and experiance in the type of product and corresponding management and production processes.
Oddly enough, I thought that I had written "process/product audits" instead of just "product audits," so my observation stands. If you know of any sort of audit process that's effective in consistently identifying potential design issues when there are literally tens of thousands of possibilities, combinations and permutations, please share it with us. There's also a leadership component to this question. We know that there have been significant instances where design defects were discovered, but someone made a "business decision" to forge ahead anyway. My guess is that as far as a paucity of recalls is concerned, the German automotive industry's leadership is less tolerant of this sort of thing.
 

Stijloor

Staff member
Super Moderator
#15
Re: VDA 6.3 - You think you had it bad?

Comprehensive Process Auditing is predominantly a requirement of The German Automotive Industry.
No, not really. ISO/TS 16949:2009 requires each manufacturing process to be audited.

The general Press! With over 10 million recalls from Toyota and Nissan alone, never mind the high Ford index, speak for themselves.
The "general press" news releases are contaminated with statements from folks whom all claim to be "automotive experts" and all of a sudden seem to be crawling out of the woodwork.

And... please do not mix opinions and facts. ;)

Stijloor.
 
P

Pogi_

#17
Re: VDA 6.3 - You think you had it bad?

And... please do not mix opinions and facts. ;)

Stijloor.
:)

:agree: OK...maybe i get everyone derailed on my "not so popular comments" about the standard and auditors' skill and qoute on Richard Pike....I know what the concept of a process audit is. In my layman's terms? "Oh think your process has weakness...i think...duh...lets fix it with this....". In my opinion, it's hard to believe the the same people who thinks that they are the expert cannot operate the machine itself. If you're an electronics manufacturing process auditor..would you actually operate my probe handlers for a day and tell me what's the best way to do my job or what's the best process i can use to make my cost lower? Of course not.

In my opinion, the best auditors (regardless of standards) are the ones who actually did or does the process / job they are auditing. An extensive and most current experience on that field with critical mind and consideration. Sometimes we do need a pair of eyes from the outside to view what we don't normally notice.

So again in VDA6.3...Don't get me wrong I do agree and i like the objective of this process audit standard and what it can do- - when done properly. And I'm NOT pointing in general terms...just a select few who they think they are the expert of what the auditee does. :whip: May I suggest to be more considerate and objective from time to time and not hit the auditee with non-sense because they have more important things to do.

I'm happy when im getting audited because I carry the hope that more can be done logically and improvement can be pointed on my key process elements at birds eye view and with new pair of eyes. It's how some of the auditors perform it that i don't agree with. Do the math....how many auditors had TRUTHFULLY make you happy as a manufacturer using VDA6.3 or any other format?? :whip: .....data speaks for it self, do not argue with it.

Peace!
 
R

Richard Pike

#18
Re: VDA 6.3 - You think you had it bad?

Oddly enough, I thought that I had written "process/product audits" instead of just "product audits," so my observation stands. If you know of any sort of audit process that's effective in consistently identifying potential design issues when there are literally tens of thousands of possibilities, combinations and permutations, please share it with us. There's also a leadership component to this question. We know that there have been significant instances where design defects were discovered, but someone made a "business decision" to forge ahead anyway. My guess is that as far as a paucity of recalls is concerned, the German automotive industry's leadership is less tolerant of this sort of thing.
Yep, thought that "process" was an accidental omission.

Nope, I don't know of ANY audit process that is foolproof. No doubt, like you, I know of some bad ones and some "better" ones.

Note: this was my original point to the Originator - don't knock it till you have tried it - unless you really think that current methods are so good!

Yep, you are probably correct that German Auto Industry is less tolerant of "commercial" decisions. (This (I believe) is because of the high ratio of Engineers within their Senior Management echelon - as opposed to Accountants).

Yep, we all know that when leadership takes its eye of the ball (as identified by Toyoda) problems occur. (am I allowed to express the opinion that some leadership has not even seen glimpses of the ball in a long time?)

So looks like we are in agreement.:agree:
 
R

Richard Pike

#19
Re: VDA 6.3 - You think you had it bad?

:)

.....data speaks for it self, do not argue with it.

Peace!
I am afraid I have lost the context of your post. I see no data to argue with?

Its pretty obvious you have had some bad experiences with auditors / fair enough - who hasn't?

However- A good Management Rep, who knows the standard, knows their customer and knows their QMS, will in allcases be able to manage an Auditor who gets off track.

Try - this is how we do it and this is why what we do is effective and by the way - this is why what we do conforms to the requirement!

An Auditor is a resource like any other. We have to make the best with what we have, improve where we can, and improvise where we cant.

What sorts the men from the boys is the ability to manage available resources. This is especially true when those resources are meager - as in Auditors who may need - guidance!
 
P

Pogi_

#20
Re: VDA 6.3 - You think you had it bad?

An Auditor is a resource like any other. We have to make the best with what we have, improve where we can, and improvise where we cant.
- more like an engineer's definition to me...but I like this :applause:

What sorts the men from the boys is the ability to manage available resources. This is especially true when those resources are meager - as in Auditors who may need - guidance!
- This to me applies to my process resource that adds value. Guiding an auditor on an on-going audit will be like me auditing the plant myself, it's either i derail him further to my advantage or kick them out (can I actually do that?) because he's not adding any value to my time. :)

- I guess the better definition of sorting men from the boys is the ability to know what to do when the need arises and make better decisions - and to believe that sometimes the ends do justify the means.

On the flip side of the coin, we could use the auditors' profesional back ground information everytime so that we know who are we dealing with, maybe 1 - 2 weeks prior? Besides, we need to know what's our meager resource' worth, right?
 
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