Definition Verification vs. Validation - What are the differences?

D
#91
Re: Verification vs. Validation

I like:
Verification - Did we make the thing right?

Validation - Did we make the right thing?
 
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Marc

Hunkered Down for the Duration with a Mask on...
Staff member
Admin
#92
Re: Verification vs. Validation

I like:
Verification - Did we make the thing right?

Validation - Did we make the right thing?
Or...

Verification - Did we design the thing right?

Validation - Does it work as intended?
 

Big Jim

Super Moderator
#93
I have seen this many times. An example was a client that manufactured elevator cars. There was no financially viable way to validate their product. Their 'validation' was customer use. If a customer had a complaint, then they would take that as a design input (when applicable) but they didn't test anything except raw materials.

There are many things that can only be validated through customer use.
I certainly agree that certain things can only be fully validated by customer use, but I also believe that does not relieve a company of the responsibility of doing what they can to validate the product. Sometimes that may be nothing more than a mental exercise of "can it be used as intended".
 

Marc

Hunkered Down for the Duration with a Mask on...
Staff member
Admin
#94
Re: Verification vs. Validation - Theoretical vs. Real Time Use

Sometimes that may be nothing more than a mental exercise of "can it be used as intended".
:2cents: I throw that back to verification because it's theoretical. Verification is theoretical. Validation is real (or simulated such as, at minimum, accelerated life studies) use.
 

Big Jim

Super Moderator
#95
Re: Verification vs. Validation - Theoretical vs. Real Time Use

:2cents: I throw that back to verification because it's theoretical. Verification is theoretical. Validation is real (or simulated such as, at minimum, accelerated life studies) use.
OK, lets look at the definitions of Verification and Validation from ISO 9000:2005. After all that's the basis for definitions for ISO 9001:2000 isn't it?

First some other definitions (from ISO 9000:2005), as they are referenced in the definitions for Verification and Validation.

Objective evidence -- data supporting the existance or verity of something.
NOTE Objective evidence can be obtained through observation, measurement, test, or other means.

Requirement -- need or expectation that is stated, generally implied or obligatory.
NOTE 3 A specified requirement is one that is stated, for example in a document.

Verificaion -- confirmation, through the provision of objective evidence that specified requirements have been fulfilled.
NOTE 2 Confirmation can comprise of activities such as
-- performing alternative calculations
-- comparing new design specification with a similar proven design specification
-- undertaking tests and demonstrations
-- reviewing documents prior to issue

Validation -- confirmation, through the provision of objective evidence that the requirements for a specific intended use or application have been fulfilled.
NOTE 2 The use conditions for validation can be real or simulated

By these definitions Verificaiton doesn't need to be theoritical.

By these definitions Validations doesn't need to be real.

If anything, Validation can be more theoretical than Verification, at least from how I read it.

What Validation must do though is show suitability for a specific intended use or application.
It looks like there is provision for wide interpretation on how to determine suitability for intended use.
 
W

w_grunfeld

#96
I have seen this many times. An example was a client that manufactured elevator cars. There was no financially viable way to validate their product. Their 'validation' was customer use. If a customer had a complaint, then they would take that as a design input (when applicable) but they didn't test anything except raw materials.

There are many things that can only be validated through customer use.
I don't know about the USA, but I guess it's similar. An elevator car has to be CE certified to be put on the market in the EC. Legally you can't mark it CE if it is not certified.(=validated). So how eactly are you going to pass on the validation to the customer?
Validation can and is usually carried out on a prototype representative of the series production product.
I can't believe a customer would buy an elevator car that wasn't tested for such basics as crash resistance/drop test.
While it is not supposed to remain in one piece after dropping from the 15th floor, I am sure (though I have not in my possesion the applicable standard) that it must withstaned unharmed a rough stop/drop from some minimal height...
Saying that I have customers who are using it and have not complained is not an acceptable validation method.
 
V

vanputten

#97
What concerns me the most about this entire thread is that there is an assumption that ther is one, absolute, operational definition for both verification and validation. Our theories and practices of verification and validation are effective, optimal, true, or whatever in the context in which we choose to apply them.

In my opinion, the definitions from ISO 9000:2005 give us the concept. An operational definition places that concept into a context or a particular set of circumstances. Things have different meanings in different contexts. The given defintions do not change. The way these things are performed, applied, operate are different in different contexts.

There is no absolute, single operation definition or one single way to practice verification or validation. Our theories and operational defintions are true in our own worlds. But it is hard to determine what that "world" is.

To say that verification is always theoretical and that validation is always real, is simple wrong. To say that an automobile manufacturer does not perform validation by driving the assembled car is wrong. Again, the context matters. For the auto supplier, they validate their output which is a piece of the car. For the auto manufacturer, they validate all of the pieces put together as a product. What Jupitor posted is an example of verification and validation. What gets validated and how depends on the context.

I bet all auto manufacturers drive their product to validate it. Why do they have test tracks? For fun? How would anyone know what validation and verification are in every application and in every industry? We don't.

Take the given definitions for the 2 terms and apply them with understanding and knowledge including consideration for the context.
 
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W

w_grunfeld

#98
Dirk,
I agree with most of what you say, my point was also that the debate based on the definitions alone, outside of concrete products and industries is pointless. Whatever the definitions of verification and validation mean or are interpretted it should be obvious to all that a car tire (not to mention chocolate cake..) and a jet airliner are verified and validated differently , while both legitimately under the same defintions.
Btw, since I haven't worked directly for a car assembler I don't know for certain , but I doubt very much that each and every car off the assembly line is test driven.
If it is, I would certainly not call it validation, it's a final acceptance test to verify that no gross error has been made during final assembly. Test tracks are for experimenting , testing prototypes and design changes, definitely validation since on test tracks cars are driven to max speed, acceleration, for measuring fuel consumption, testing handling in all weather condition, stability, and so on)
 

Big Jim

Super Moderator
#99
Having spent more of my younger years than I care to remember on an auto assembly line, I can tell you that every car is driven. They are driven from the end of the line to the loading area to be loaded on trains or transport trucks. All except for the very few that don't start right up and are pushed to the side for repair. Once repaired, they to are driven to the loading docks. I certainly would not call that much of a validation.
 
V

vanputten

Stating "I certainly would not call that much of a validation." might imply that these terms are variable. Are verification and validation variables or attributes?

Who knows? Maybe a better question is "Who cares?" (I am trying to show the humourous side of me that has been criticized.)

Certainly starting the engine and moving the car could be a validation of the interaction for certain parts of the car. Understanding how parts work together as a whole is an important aspect of validation to be considered.
 
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