Warranty - Is Warranty a Service or not per ISO 9001

Big Jim

Super Moderator
#11
The last paragraph of 8.3 states that “when nonconforming product is detected after delivery or use has started, the organization shall take action appropriate to the effects, or potential effects, of the nonconformity”

…the key words are “the organization shall take action appropriate to the effects, or potential effects…” – which means, it is the organization itself who is going to decide what actions they are going to take since they themselves should know the consequences of the nonconformity…

…going back to the inquiry whether warranty - is part of service as per ISO 9001 or not? the answer is there, it’ll be depend on the organization itself of how they are going to define “warranty” and/or “service” on their business… the most important is, they have to comply with the requirements whether by using “warranty” and/or “service”…
I still don't see it. If you provide a warranty of any kind, and 8.3 forces you to have at least a minimal warranty (as does 7.6), how can you define warranty in such a manner that it excludes service?
 
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Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#12
I still don't see it. If you provide a warranty of any kind, and 8.3 forces you to have at least a minimal warranty (as does 7.6), how can you define warranty in such a manner that it excludes service?
Some clarifications are in order, I think. Neither of the clauses you cite say anything about warranties in the sense that is being discussed here. In the US, shipping products in accordance with a contractual agreement (a purchase order, e.g.) creates an implied warranty, which is to say that the seller implicitly acknowledges that the goods are in accordance with the contractual requirements.

This is distinct from an express warranty, whereby a seller (usually in writing) makes explicit promises or assurances regarding the the form, contents, performance and/or other attributes of the product, and usually agrees to repair or replace product that doesn't perform as warranted.

Note that it's altogether possible that no service (i.e., repair, adjustment, maintenance) ever takes place on products sold under warranty. Products may be replaced, or refunds may be granted without invoking any "service" requirements.
 
#13
Thanks for that Jim. I have been stuggling to put my thoughts into words - which you've done eloquently.

This is the exact reason I have a hard time with any ISO-related requirements which would associate warranty so closely with service. One might be offered/delivered to address the other, but to say that all warranty is a service is bizarre, IMHO. But then, the authors of QS-9000 had some strange ideas about some sections of ISO 9000 too.........
 

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#14
Thanks for that Jim. I have been stuggling to put my thoughts into words - which you've done eloquently.

This is the exact reason I have a hard time with any ISO-related requirements which would associate warranty so closely with service. One might be offered/delivered to address the other, but to say that all warranty is a service is bizarre, IMHO. But then, the authors of QS-9000 had some strange ideas about some sections of ISO 9000 too.........
I think the easiest thing to do is forget about warranties and just think about "service." If a customer sends something back that you've sold them, and they want you to repair it, maintain it, calibrate it, or otherwise do work on it and return it to them, regardless of how (or if) the work is paid for, you're doing service.
 
#15
I think the easiest thing to do is forget about warranties and just think about "service." If a customer sends something back that you've sold them, and they want you to repair it, maintain it, calibrate it, or otherwise do work on it and return it to them, regardless of how (or if) the work is paid for, you're doing service.
I wish I could, Jim. But the paint's peeling off the wheels of my 2006 Chevrolet (that's a non-conforming product, isn't it) (despite the supplier being ISO/TS 16949 certified, submitting PPAP's etc) and although the dealership had it for two weeks to resolve my customer complaint, it still hasn't - so I stopped going there for ''service" (oil changes etc). Incidently, despite finding a dealer who was prepared to take on the 'warranty' work, GM told them 'NO' - "tell the customer to take it back where he bought it":frust:

And we wonder why the domestic car market is a mess............and why I have a hard time dealing with 'service' and 'warranty' as the same thing....:lmao:
 

Big Jim

Super Moderator
#16
I guess my automotive background colors my perception. The act of replacing a bad product to me is a service. There may not be any repair, but there is administrative details to work out that goes above and beyond delivering new product. Often, warranty does involve repairs or rework. In that instance it most certainly is service in the ISO 9001:2000 realm.

On a related topic, I was performing an internal audit receintly for a AS9100B registered company and discovered that they claimed an exclusion to service although they brought customer's parts back in for repairs and overhauls. They felt that they were able to claim the exclusion because they did not perform the repairs offsite. Do you think I wrote a nonconformance?
 
#18
Service is a misnomer in many cases. How many companies have 'customer service'? The actual roles have little to do with 'service' the way ISO 9001 intends the term to be applied. Customer service is often an order taking function or handling inquiries, complaints etc.

In many ways nearly everything a company does is a service to a customer (as Jim rightly points out) - you can't do it, so you go to someone who can! They're providing you with a service, but that's not 'service' in the eyes of ISO 9001........
 

Stijloor

Staff member
Super Moderator
#19
Service is a misnomer in many cases. How many companies have 'customer service'? The actual roles have little to do with 'service' the way ISO 9001 intends the term to be applied. Customer service is often an order taking function or handling inquiries, complaints etc.

In many ways nearly everything a company does is a service to a customer (as Jim rightly points out) - you can't do it, so you go to someone who can! They're providing you with a service, but that's not 'service' in the eyes of ISO 9001........
I like the term: "post delivery activities" in ISO 9001:2000.
That, IMHO, speaks for itself.

Stijloor.
 

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#20
I like the term: "post delivery activities" in ISO 9001:2000.
That, IMHO, speaks for itself.

Stijloor.
All of this confusion is diagnostic of the fact that too many people are more concerned with shoehorning things into clauses of the standard and not concerned enough about identifying and documenting their QMS processes.

Forget about the standard for a minute and think about processes. Do customers send stuff in and expect you to do something with it, such as repair, adjustment, maintenance or calibration? Those are (as Stijloor observantly points out) post-delivery activities, and you need to have a plan for dealing with them. It doesn't matter what you call the process, or whether or not there are warranties involved. You need a plan, and it should be documented. Who's responsible for evaluating the returned articles and deciding what needs to be done? Who does the actual service? Who pays for it? How does it feed the CI process? Are there special handling, routing and packaging concerns?

Address the process, and stop trying to force round pegs into square holes.
 
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