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Interesting Discussion Was this the fastest ever stage 2 ISO9001:2015 audit?

Ninja

Looking for Reality
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#21
...been studiously avoiding threads where you've posted, Sidney...utmost respect for your work...
You brought the blind gopher back, not me...

I want the CB's to be held accountable...just not by me who is paying them...
 
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Elsmar Forum Sponsor
#23
Can accreditation bodies or IAF or even ISO org do something to these kind of CBs?
One AB I'm familiar with used to have a fairly accessible page on their website where such complaints could be lodged. It's gone it seems. Perhaps they were overwhelmed...
 

tony s

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#24
One AB I'm familiar with used to have a fairly accessible page on their website where such complaints could be lodged. It's gone it seems. Perhaps they were overwhelmed...
It's unfortunate...:nope: Here in my country there are CBs that also offer consultancy services. Unfortunately, again, they don't have a good grasp in planning, documenting, implementing, even auditing internally, a QMS.:frust:
 

Sidney Vianna

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#25
Can accreditation bodies or IAF or even ISO org do something to these kind of CBs?
There is no "magic bullet" to fix what needs fixing. The IAF just announced it's 25th anniversary. I started working with management system certification at the cusp of the first accreditation bodies creation, way before the establishment of the IAF.

Over my 17 years of presence at The Cove, I have mentioned numerous times the solution is not easy nor quick, but, in my mind, it has to start with the users of certificates. Remember that the users of management system certificates and purchasers of certification services have, many times, differing expectations; the users of certificates want the certificates to mean robust systems, confidence in the certified system, assurance of a reliable supplier.

Meanwhile, the purchasers of certification services, many times make their decision on certifier selection using criteria that signifies the cheapest, fastest, least difficult path to certification.

With the obvious mismatch, the solution to fix the problem passes through, obligatorily, the users of certificates keeping the issuers of certificates accountable to their expectations. Unfortunately, most organizations, users of management system certificates don't know what to do and how to proceed when a certified supplier consistently demonstrates to have a substandard (and by definition, uncertifiable) system. They don't know how to keep the CB accountable. They don't understand how to engage with the Accreditation Body of the CB and demand accountability. In my mind, it is mind blogging: when a customer receives a nonconforming product, they tend to react. In the case of certificates issued to substandard systems - a clear nonconforming product - most users of such faulty certificates don't know how to react.

No, tonny s, there is no magic bullet. Only massive amounts of accountability, AT ALL LEVELS, can bring this process back in to a state that generates confidence and assurance to all stakeholders. Look at my sig line, by the way.

Anyone who does not make themselves and keep the other parties accountable to the common goal of confidence and assurance (associated with management system certificates) is part of the problem and not part of the solution.
 

Kronos147

Trusted Information Resource
#27
Not trying to be an enabler for the very valid issues and concerns being brought up in this thread, I would wish to add that the release of ISO 9001:2015 in 2016 was not a plan for success across the many schemes. The transition schedule and deadlines caused undue burdens across all sectors, especially aerospace.

I think it would be wise if the standard included implementation and transition guides with a list of activities, including realistic time frames. Force the committees to think about the entire chain (including registrars ramping up and getting their auditors qualified EFFECTIVELY!).
 

Sidney Vianna

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#28
I want the CB's to be held accountable...just not by me who is paying them...
In my mind accountability is like a chain. Purchasers of certification services have to be accountable, just like the CB's themselves, AB's, users of certificates, consultants, etc...The moment one stakeholder claims exemption from accountability, the system starts to erode.

I think it would be wise if the standard included implementation and transition guides with a list of activities, including realistic time frames. Force the committees to think about the entire chain (including registrars ramping up and getting their auditors qualified EFFECTIVELY!).
I respectfully disagree. The committees deliberating on the standard have to be kept separate from the conformity assessment practitioners. Distinct issues.

Let's also remember that the process of standards revision is not a secret. There are multiple stages of documents and, typically, a few years, before a standard is revised. Unfortunately, history tells us that, when it comes to the implementation of revisions to standards, procrastination is the norm. The overwhelming majority of registrants don't want to be early adopters and only act close to deadlines.
 
#29
I think it would be wise if the standard included implementation and transition guides with a list of activities, including realistic time frames. Force the committees to think about the entire chain (including registrars ramping up and getting their auditors qualified EFFECTIVELY!).
With 25+ years of experience/expertise in this area, it's a practical impossibility to define an answer for "how long is a piece of string?"
 

Kronos147

Trusted Information Resource
#30
There are multiple stages of documents and, typically, a few years, before a standard is revised. Unfortunately, history tells us that, when it comes to the implementation of revisions to standards, procrastination is the norm. The overwhelming majority of registrants don't want to be early adopters and only act close to deadlines.
I appreciate what you are saying, however, the committee missed their own deadlines revising ISO 9001:2015, no?

Peronally, I typically sleep on it first, before I procrastinate. :giggle:
 
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