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Interesting Discussion Was this the fastest ever stage 2 ISO9001:2015 audit?

J

jmech

Trusted Information Resource
#51
#51
Big Jim said:
I really have a hard time understanding why you guys are defending something that is indefensible.

The text is clear.
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I'm opposed to impossible requirements.

In the case of a nonconformance detected after product has been delivered and consumed, customer notification is the only possible option of the 4 options listed in 8.7.1.

Big Jim said:
jmech

You obviously agree that simply informing the customer is not enough then when you point out about corrective action. That is more than informing the customer is it not?
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A corrective action to prevent recurrence does not "deal with" the nonconforming outputs already delivered and consumed, and therefore is properly not in section 8.7. It is required by 10.2 due to the nonconformity.
 
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B

Big Jim

Super Moderator
#56
#56
A corrective action to prevent recurrence does not "deal with" the nonconforming outputs already delivered and consumed, and therefore is properly not in section 8.7. It is required by 10.2 due to the nonconformity.

As long as you are going out of 8.7 on this, 8.2.1e may have some bearing on this too about contingency actions.

That is still more than simply informing the customer.
 
J

jmech

Trusted Information Resource
#57
#57
Big Jim said:
And you didn't answer my question. Is not working it out with the customer more than just informing them?
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I agree that you should work it out with the customer - this is basic customer service. However, this is not the current ISO 9001 requirement, and it could be difficult to write such a requirement in a way that is practical and auditible.

Big Jim said:
jmech

d is still in play is it not? Obtaining acceptance under concession?
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It's great if they do, but you can't force the customer to retroactively give a concession.
 
B

Big Jim

Super Moderator
#58
#58
"The answer is, all they did was inform me... I had to do the paperwork to correct the spec. What do you want me to do, agree with you?"

It looks like you just did. There was more to it than just informing the customer. A mutually agreeable solution was determined.
 
B

Big Jim

Super Moderator
#59
#59
"It's great if they do, but you can't force the customer to retroactively give a concession."

That's one of the awkward things about shipping nonconforming product. There is a tremendous liability if the nonconformance requires a recall, especially if there are injuries or fatalities involved.
 
J

jmech

Trusted Information Resource
#60
#60
Big Jim said:
"It's great if they do, but you can't force the customer to retroactively give a concession."

That's one of the awkward things about shipping nonconforming product. There is a tremendous liability if the nonconformance requires a recall, especially if there are injuries or fatalities involved.
Click to expand...
I think we all agree that shipping nonconforming product is bad. As well, if you detect a nonconformity after product has shipped, you must notify the customer. You should also work it out with the customer.

Section 8.7 gives a requirement to "deal with nonconforming outputs" and lists four ways to do this. Of these four options, informing the customer may be the only possible option if the nonconforming product has already been consumed. Evaluating the need for a corrective action to prevent recurrence is required by 10.2, but it is not dealing with the nonconforming outputs (including product already delivered), as preventing recurrence does not affect outputs already consumed.

Section 8.7 makes sense and is not a glaring error.
 
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