"We don't have enough resources" as an Audit Non-conformance Response

ISO_Man

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#1
I was taught during my ISO training that a response from an auditee that "we don't have the resources" to complete a quality related is in itself a non-conformance related to Resourcing and Planning for the QMS.

Any input on this?
 
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Sidney Vianna

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#2
Obviously, a resource deficit (of any kind) could happen AFTER the planning took place, so that is a myth. Nevertheless, 7.1.1 of 9001:2015 establishes the organization has to identify and PROVIDE the needed resources for the effective operation of the quality system.
 
#4
Not having resources required by a standard where compliance is claimed, is an NC which is what I believe you mean?

But it is ok for a manufacturer to state they don't have resources for anything they haven't claimed compliance with, but as this is an ISO audit, I don't think this is what you mean?
 

ISO_Man

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#5
What I mean is that part of the standard includes leadership providing the resources to support the Quality Management System, but what I'm running into is people who are already very busy saying "we just don't have time" to do specific tasks that are required (like tracking training records etc.) -- if your organization is failing to perform tasks related to the QMS and the excuse is that they don't have resources, one possible NC is against "resourcing"
 

Coury Ferguson

Moderator here to help
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#6
What I mean is that part of the standard includes leadership providing the resources to support the Quality Management System, but what I'm running into is people who are already very busy saying "we just don't have time" to do specific tasks that are required (like tracking training records etc.) -- if your organization is failing to perform tasks related to the QMS and the excuse is that they don't have resources, one possible NC is against "resourcing"
I wouldn't reach that conclusion. It really doesn't show a lack of resources, in my opinion.

My questions would be the following:

1. Does the organization maintain records to show objective evidence of training? Are they adequate?
2. Is this really affecting the organization from fulfilling managing the Quality Management System?
3. Are lacking these resources causing complaints from the Customer(s)?
4. Are internal audits being performed? Was this identified in an Internal Audit?
5. Are these lack of resources causing the product or service to be affected?

These would just be some of the question I would ask, in my opinion.
 

Pjservan

Involved In Discussions
#7
While this can be true, many times the :
"we just don't have time" to do specific tasks that are required (like tracking training records etc.)
is indeed a red flag.

Either they have not looked at the way they perform their tasks to determine if it is the most effective and efficient way or the issue has not been brought up to to top management. After all resourcing is a top management item.
 

ISO_Man

Involved In Discussions
#8
I wouldn't reach that conclusion. It really doesn't show a lack of resources, in my opinion.

My questions would be the following:

1. Does the organization maintain records to show objective evidence of training? Are they adequate?
2. Is this really affecting the organization from fulfilling managing the Quality Management System?
3. Are lacking these resources causing complaints from the Customer(s)?
4. Are internal audits being performed? Was this identified in an Internal Audit?
5. Are these lack of resources causing the product or service to be affected?

These would just be some of the question I would ask, in my opinion.

Yes to most of them; it was identified in internal and external ISO audits. It's a requirement of the QMS so if you're not keeping training records you're already at fault so by definition you're not fulfilling the QMS.
 

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#9
What I mean is that part of the standard includes leadership providing the resources to support the Quality Management System, but what I'm running into is people who are already very busy saying "we just don't have time" to do specific tasks that are required (like tracking training records etc.) -- if your organization is failing to perform tasks related to the QMS and the excuse is that they don't have resources, one possible NC is against "resourcing"
One of the hallmarks of poor management is the existence of conflicting priorities for people. Oftentimes people are put in "damned if you do and damned if you don't" situations, which causes them to have to choose which blow to the head will be the least painful. It doesn't necessarily mean that there aren't enough people; it could be that people are trying to satisfy unnecessary or unreasonable requirements. It's a problem that can be solved only at the top level of management.
 

Coury Ferguson

Moderator here to help
Trusted Information Resource
#10
Yes to most of them; it was identified in internal and external ISO audits. It's a requirement of the QMS so if you're not keeping training records you're already at fault so by definition you're not fulfilling the QMS.
But, is that really objective evidence that there is a lack of resources? Not maintaining training records would fall out of the requirements of ISO, but I didn't see that was identified as the NC. The NC was written against resources, I believe that it was I saw in your post.
 
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