Welding - Is welding always a special process per ISO9001:2000 Clause 7.5.2

[TamTom]

Re: Welding - Is welding always a special process per AS9001 Clause 7.5.2

Hello,

if you believe the AIAG Automotive standard they have defined the following special processes:

- Heat Treating (CQI-9)
- Plating (CQI-11)
- Welding (upcoming CQI)
- Coatings & Pretreatment (CQI-12)
- Chemical Processes

in the attachement you find a small presentation from the AIAG, but the Aerospace industry may have other definitions.

Regards,

TamTom

 

[AndyN]

Re: Welding - Is welding always a special process per AS9001 Clause 7.5.2

It's a paradox that the AIAG would publish such a document, when nearly every domestic car making bodyshop (and a lot of their suppliers) regularly do a chisel test on (spot) welds........

 

[Coury Ferguson]

Re: Welding - Is welding always a special process per AS9001 Clause 7.5.2

I am sorry, i didnt state that i am talking about ISO 9001:2000 based Quality Management system not AS. Now can the organization based on ISO take exclusion from 7.5.2 even if sensitive welding activites are being carried out? Welds are tested through NDT procedures, and hydrostatic testing, RT and other crack detection methods.

I have changed the thread title from AS9100 to ISO9001:2000 since you clarified which standard the question was applicable to.

 

[Paul Simpson]

I want to know that, if a sensitive welding operation, can be verified, tested e.g, through hydrualic testing, radiographic testing, or by some non-distructive testing, latest crack detection methodS before it is put into use, then should it be dealt as SPECIAL PROCESS (clause 7.5.2)?

What is this obsessions with claiming exclusions? What you are doing says you probably meet the requirements!

You are describing in detail how you manage processes in accordance with clause 7.5.2

The organization shall establish arrangements for these processes including, as applicable
a) defined criteria for review and approval of the processes You probably did something here when you were designing the product,
b) approval of equipment and qualification of personnel You may be doing something here too,
c) use of specific methods and procedures All of your testing methods listed above - and there may be welding procedures as well specifying weld materials, process settings etc., etc.,
d) requirements for records (see 4.2.4), and
e) revalidation.

If you are doing all of this for engineering welds then there is no need to claim an exclusion and it is not appropriate anyway.

 

[Rajes]

hi,

we are dealing with the soil investigation works for the piling and other construction works. All the design for the invstigation scope been provided by the customer and the lab test been carried at accridated labs.

Is i still i need to consider the soil investigation as a special process under the clause 7.5.2 in this case.

Pls carify.

 

[Anerol C]

Re: Welding - Is welding always a special process per AS9001 Clause 7.5.2

Welding requires many controls to be in place; operator/welder certification/qualification, welding materials controls/storage/conditioning, weldment material preparation/preconditioning, approval of welding procedures, and so on.
.

Hi to All,
Does any body of you are using a welder ID badge? Do you have a format to share with me?
Thanks

 

[w_grunfeld]

I don't know what "soil investigation" means, I am guessing it's not a single process but a few of them, ecah of which may or may not be a "special process"
Welding is definitely a special process , for the reasons Andy pointed out. By the way 7.5.2 does not define what a special proces is , it only says what one needs to do in the case of special processes.
There may be applications where welding is not critical (not load bearing , nor safety related) still you'll have a hard time convincing any auditor that it shouldn't be considered critical.

 

[Sidney Vianna]

An example of a non-special weld process.

Welding has always been considered a 'special process'. The quality of a weldment, in its entirety, cannot be determined through any amount of fancy inspections.

Welding is definitely a special process , for the reasons Andy pointed out. By the way 7.5.2 does not define what a special proces is , it only says what one needs to do in the case of special processes.
There may be applications where welding is not critical (not load bearing , nor safety related) still you'll have a hard time convincing any auditor that it shouldn't be considered critical.

An architectural company orders some rectangular plant boxes made of stainless steel plates, duly welded. The only requirements are the dimensions, workmanship and the need for the plant boxes not leak around the seams. The first two requirements can be easily verified, so can the last one, by a leak test. A welding process was used, but all required characteristics can be easily and subsequently verified. No need to validate this weld process.

 

[Colin]

.... Welding is definitely a special process , for the reasons Andy pointed out. By the way 7.5.2 does not define what a special process is , it only says what one needs to do in the case of special processes.

Of course these days ISO 9001 does not call them 'special processes' although a previous version did do so. I do think that the clause specifies what they are though - '... where the resulting output cannot be verified by subsequent monitoring or measurement.....' So if you can't check it, how are you going to be sure it will be right is the question I ask and how important is it to be right, what are the consequences of failure?.

I think Sidney's example is an excellent demonstration that we should not get 'stuck in the tramlines' of thinking 'always and never' when we look at a situation - take each case on its merits.

 

[w_grunfeld]

I pointed out myself that there are types of weldments and applications that are not critical. By the way there are many types of inspections and NDT to verify the quality of weldments-red dye penetrant to give an example of just one that is widely used. X-rays are a very good test, the think is the cost of doing it on every piece is much higher than having in place a certified welder and process.
The thing is that you can't take a special process and say it is not, because you only use it for non-critical applications. Today it's a flower box, tomorrow it's something else..I have worked for an electroncs manufacturing company, we had a welder who made what we thought were pretty good weldments , nothing critical was required just that the box would not fall apart and we never had any complaints.
One day a customer insisted that the welder should be certified. Piece of cake,we thought, this guy has over 10 years of experience in aluminum weldings.
The bottom line , he failed 3 times the certification tests that included welding samples of part shapes and thicknesses that he never did before.
If a job definition requires certification , you can't afford not having it certified unless you are content to do flower boxes for ever and turn down anything more demanding than that. Even so, the boxes in this example passed a leak test, but this only shows that they weren't leaking at the moment. How about 6 months or 2 years later?